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Gangs, or just wannabes  
folder icon   01-15-2002, 12:11 AM
Gangs, or just wannabes Post #1
runner

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What's your idea of a gang. I think of a gang being like the mafia. They have international deals in drugs and other things. That's serious. But when I think of a bunch of kids carring chains and spray painting buildings, they're just wannabes. Boy we have alot of wannabes in South Dakota.

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folder icon   01-15-2002, 12:25 AM
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dimitri583

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In many parts of the city here its the only way to gaurantee some sort of life for oneself. Face it, McDonalds isnt gonna hire you if you got no address and are a cnvicted felon. Most people dont really have a choice. The breakup of the traditional nuclear american family has left most young people to create thier own within a gang. Gangs are jsut giving the youth what modern society cannot.

Ironic, the government fights gangs when they are jsut a biproduct of urban underfunding. Chicago needs a lot of money. The city is literally decaying, but no, money goes into the pockets of large corporations. It sickens me to watch my city die. But i guess politicians could really care less anyways, right? Poor people dont make monetary contributions...

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folder icon   01-15-2002, 12:30 AM
Post #3
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Ya your right dimitri gangs do give some youths a sense of purpose. Lol here I'm some south dakotan making judgements about gangs when I've never seen a real one. The gangs in south dakota are just wannabes and I don't consider those gangs.

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folder icon   01-15-2002, 12:34 AM
Post #4
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Hehe, well, we got gang wanabees here to, but they are mostly rich white suburban kids who like to play cool and shit. real or not however, when they form, its telling you that something vital is missing in society for them to form. Hopefully tho, the 'gangs' in SD wont go around commiting any horrible acts of violence, which seems to plague this area.

You may be jsut a 'South Dakotan' but obviously u guys are doing SOMETHING right if u got barely any violence

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folder icon   01-15-2002, 12:39 AM
Post #5
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We have even worse than wannabes at my school. We have Hair-Net wearing wannabes. yes, hair nets. The kind that keep your hair from falling in food. Its great to see people acting thugish in a hair net. Maybe its just a little taste of their future?? Oh, we also have people that wear pantyhose as hats. They're like these nylon head things that are pointless except as an addition to their $300+ outfits. Bump anyone in the halls at my school, and they act like they want to fight. Ignore them and they mumble stuff about you being a pussy. I cant wait to get out of high school and into college. At least then I can be surrounded by semi-decent people.


Oh, San Fransico has some gangs I think. In my art class, somone's friend got killed in a driveby from a gang.

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folder icon   01-15-2002, 12:46 AM
Post #6
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We're just less violent because we have a low density of people. That and there not much to do here to get into serious trouble.

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folder icon   01-15-2002, 01:14 AM
Post #7
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in Australia hmm
the gangs are like of different culture , theres aussie gangs , asian , lebs etc
bit wierded here if ya know what i mean

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folder icon   01-15-2002, 08:56 AM
Post #8
TheUndertow

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When I think of gangs, I just think of the ones in LA. I know there are other ones that are just as "serious", but those are the ones that I think of. My high school (in a suburb of Detroit) had maybe 2 black guys at it, the rest were either white or a few completely American-Asian. When I think of gangs, I think of either blacks or latinos, but not whites. Just how I perceive them. We had a lot of white people that were gang wannabes that would wear Raiders (Raiders were still in LA at the time) or Kings shirts/jerseys and big chains and crap and act all homey-ish. To use a deragatory term, people generally called them whiggers. I think if you looked "wannabe" up in the dictionary it should have a picture of one of those guys next to it, cause I've never seen a more obvious wannabe in my life.

Runner, in your case, I'd probably just call those guys punks. They probably aren't dealing drugs or part of some cross-country network, so they aren't real gang members, and they don't pretend to act like LA gang members so they aren't even gang wannabes. They are just what I call punks -- a group of kids looking for trouble.

[This message has been edited by TheUndertow (edited January 16, 2002).]

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folder icon   01-15-2002, 10:48 AM
Post #9
DeamonHUNTER

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I think gang is a buch of people having fun, because that is what it is all about !!
sure there is lot of wanbies, but who gives a shit !! Everybody haves fun in their own way !!

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folder icon   01-15-2002, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DeamonHUNTER:
I think gang is a buch of people having fun, because that is what it is all about !!
sure there is lot of wanbies, but who gives a shit !! Everybody haves fun in their own way !!
</font>

yeah, it can be quiet fun punching at ppl, it really can...



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folder icon   01-15-2002, 12:37 PM
Post #11
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Well, here in Georgia things are as complicated as over in the US, gang-wise. First of all, I must say that I was in one of the toughest schools in whole country, which had several gangs in it. One was the dominating, real deal gang, with guns and stuff. Others where basicaly wanna-be's, as you put it, just a bunch of kiddos trying to act tough. Ok, here comes the most important part: the gangs didnt fight with eachother, believe it or not. Our guys were sticking together and mainly picking on "solo" kids or wackos. Outside of the school it was even better: our school had the most feared bunch, no one from outside would even dare to come to our school and say a single loud word, heh. I was in a kind of "sub-gang" of those guys, nothing extreme, but still I was getting the respect needed to feel good and relaxed in the school. Things went tougher when the big guys graduated (they were three grades higher than us), couple of inside fights, I and one of my pals were held in police for a night for carrying huge-ass knifes when we met some cops after the fight.

Enough ranting though, to sum it up, school gangs are fun, if you're tough enough to either be in one, or to deal with them. But what BFL said... Oh my God! Those hair-net guys would get their hearts ripped out and eaten in front of everybody in my school!

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folder icon   01-15-2002, 04:14 PM
Post #12
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There are real gangs. I live in New York, and the gangs I've ecnountered are violent, extremely loyal groups who are territorial and usually involved in drugs. They are a kind of organized crime. There are no gangs in South Dakota; trust me. Just a bunch of stupid fucks who think they're tough and go home to their suburban, white collar neighborhoods. It's really, really, stupid, and people like that deserve no respect whatsoever.

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folder icon   01-15-2002, 09:33 PM
Post #13
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DeamonHUNTER:
I think gang is a buch of people having fun, because that is what it is all about !!
sure there is lot of wanbies, but who gives a shit !! Everybody haves fun in their own way !!
</font>

See, now, your an idiot. Gangs kill people. If thats 'fun' to you, i think you need help...
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Origionally posted by Evil Penguin

There are real gangs. I live in New York, and the gangs I've ecnountered are violent, extremely loyal groups who are territorial and usually involved in drugs. They are a kind of organized crime. There are no gangs in South Dakota; trust me. Just a bunch of stupid fucks who think they're tough and go home to their suburban, white collar neighborhoods. It's really, really, stupid, and people like that deserve no respect whatsoever.
</font>

Ill redirect you to the 2nd post of this thread, made by me. I can always tell who here lives in the suburbs.

Although yeah, they are bad, its indirectly casued by federal underfunding of inner cities. Gangs are a indirect result of federal governmnet indifference.

Killing people ofcourse is wrong, but which is worse? Dieing from a gun or wasting away in a crumbling gutter on the lower west side?



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folder icon   01-15-2002, 11:38 PM
Post #14
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dimitri583:
In many parts of the city here its the only way to gaurantee some sort of life for oneself. Face it, McDonalds isnt gonna hire you if you got no address and are a cnvicted felon. Most people dont really have a choice. The breakup of the traditional nuclear american family has left most young people to create thier own within a gang. Gangs are jsut giving the youth what modern society cannot.

Ironic, the government fights gangs when they are jsut a biproduct of urban underfunding. Chicago needs a lot of money. The city is literally decaying, but no, money goes into the pockets of large corporations. It sickens me to watch my city die. But i guess politicians could really care less anyways, right? Poor people dont make monetary contributions...

</font>

I haven't read the rest of the thread, so this may have been mentioned, but I'll say it anyway: nuclear families don't carry chains and curb-stomp kids for wearing different colours. Gangs do. Where's the sense of purpose in that? I don't see one. I see a wannabe sense of badass.

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folder icon   01-16-2002, 09:27 AM
Post #15
TheUndertow

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I personally won't give government underfunding as an excuse for violence. The government isn't the one with the chain or the one with the gun.

I guess I need to better understand the inner-city mentality. I was lucky growing up in the nice, quiet suburbs, but I've never understood why inner-city people can't get out. In Detroit, you can make pretty good money working at a car plant. Certainly enough to get out of the inner city. Dimitri, I know you said people won't hire someone that has no address or is a convicted felon -- now I don't fully understand the address part (are you saying there are that many homeless people?) but the convicted felon brought it upon himself. From my point of view, it looks like inner city people have all the oppurtunities in the world and they waste them by doing drugs and joining gangs. This is callous, but IMO people are in a slum because that's where they belong. I know there are A LOT of people that aren't as lucky as I am and had shitty childhoods and I have no idea what goes on down there, but if someone doesn't go to school, doesn't work hard, and doesn't make use of oppurtunties that are presented to them, then I have no sympathy for their predicament.

[This message has been edited by TheUndertow (edited January 16, 2002).]

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folder icon   01-16-2002, 01:45 PM
Post #16
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TheUndertow:
I personally won't give government underfunding as an excuse for violence. The government isn't the one with the chain or the one with the gun.
</font>
Well, ofocurse. The government is the one with the cash and seemingly total indifference
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I guess I need to better understand the inner-city mentality. I was lucky growing up in the nice, quiet suburbs, but I've never understood why inner-city people can't get out.
</font>

It really all comes down to money. Taxes in suburbs are higher than that of city, as well as the cost of living. Apts and housing are important factors, and jobs in suburbs are far more elitist than city menial jobs, and they dont hire hoboes.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
In Detroit, you can make pretty good money working at a car plant. Certainly enough to get out of the inner city. Dimitri, I know you said people won't hire someone that has no address or is a convicted felon -- now I don't fully understand the address part (are you saying there are that many homeless people?)
</font>

Last i hear, the homeless are poor too. That, and that large comapnies like Ford in those autofactories WONT hire people depending on where htey live. Like, damn, no one is gonna hire you if u live by 327th and Cicero... or 5600 blocks south of State St. They figure that living in a slum makes u a gangster right there. Training also, eithet u dont have any or money to get it. Also, location. The south and southwest side of Chicago is economically blighted, meaning there are NO jobs. Just city blocks abandoned, crumbling, street names long forgotten. City wont clean em up, cuz they got no money to do so.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
but the convicted felon brought it upon himself. From my point of view, it looks like inner city people have all the oppurtunities in the world and they waste them by doing drugs and joining gangs.
</font>


Your a retard for saying that man, thats total suburban talk. All the oppurtunities in the world? How does one go saying that? Schools suck ass, cuz there are no teachers, the ones there are underqualified, or arent really teachers. No jobs cuz there is no commerce in these areas. McDonalds isnt gonna open a store by 2276th St cuz no one has enough money to go there daily, and its probly gonna get robbed and burned down by molotov cocktails by the end of the week.

Drugs are hte only business in these areas, so people go into it cuz they gotta rasie families, they gotta have money to live. Gangs provide a family structure, becasue these people either got none, or their family is so wacked up it isnt really one. Gangs are taking the palce of the crumbling american nuclear family.

I dont support gangs in any way, but im showing u guys another perspective. Gangs provide support, which is a lot more than the United States Government ever has.
Its not jsut like the movies, always fuckign killing people. They kill when they have to. Gangs need 'area' and territory to work. If another gangs invades it, they earn less money, and they cant support all thier own, so they gotta war over it. Gangs DONT like killing people. But they do if they need to. Trust me, this is 1st hand experience talking.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
This is callous, but IMO people are in a slum because that's where they belong.
</font>

WTF is this shit? Ok, thats real cool. Yeah, i guess i can expect a rich kid to say that. Isiah Thomas, hoop dreams man. People can fuck up and lose it all. How can u blame someone for losing his money? Please forgive me, my dad dosent own 50 car dealerships.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I know there are A LOT of people that aren't as lucky as I am and had shitty childhoods and I have no idea what goes on down there, but if someone doesn't go to school, doesn't work hard, and doesn't make use of oppurtunties that are presented to them, then I have no sympathy for their predicament.
</font>


See, no oppurtunities can come to them. These are people without hope. People dont kill themselves, get high on cain, or go on murderous rampages because they are happy man, they do it because they have no hope! Schools in CHicago are the Worst in the nation, illinois is the 50th state in ranks of educational system (last fricken place), so good schools are out. Work hard? Even if you could find work, its not like they are paying you good. Most business has moved from the inner city to the outer ridge of the city of the elustrious suburbs, creating a viscious cycle, business moves out, people are laid off, no money, no commerce, more businessess move out. Wow, u think urban reconstruction is an easy job?

There are no opputunities. People dont like living in slums. They cant get out. And its getting worse. So think about that while our nation slowly begins to rot on the inside.

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folder icon   01-16-2002, 03:00 PM
Post #17
TheUndertow

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I'll take exception to what you said, because you don't know me, but just because I lived in the nice, quiet suburbs doesn't make me rich. My high school was good enough to get me accepted to college, I'll give you that much. I got student loans, and I worked for the down payment. I worked the maximum hours a week when I was under 18 (22hrs) and I worked 40hrs a week while still carrying a 3.98 in school when I turned 18, and I worked about 56hrs a week during the summer. I saved every fucking penny! I didn't have a TV, didn't have a computer, I didn't have video games, and I drove a 84 Capri stick that I bought for $300 to get to work.

Ford won't hire people according to where they live? I totally don't agree with that. That's blatant discrimination, and I don't see how you can believe that is how big corporations operate. Ford has the Rouge plant right on the west side of Detroit, and tons of inner city people work there. No jobs? How do you get food? Last time I checked, you get it at a store, and last time I checked, stores have people working at them. It may not be much, but you can always start saving. If every single place in existance refuses to hire in Chicago based on where you live, then fine, you win, case closed. If you are saying people are so poor that they can't save up for a $300 shitmobile like I had, or take whatever mass transit you have there, then fine. Then Chicago must really be Bombay-West.

The schools suck ass? If that was the case, I would teach myself. I can read, and that's all you need to be able to learn anything in high school. You at least have books at the school, don't you? I'd take the GED then or whatever it is, then move on. Save up my money to get the hell out of there. Before you start saying that can't happen, there was a guy working here at Ford as a summer intern this year that is doing exactly that. His mom died and his dad is an alcholic, the guy taught himself, got his GED, and now he's going to Lawrence Tech. Yes, that guy is really smart, smart enough to teach himself -- but he is also an incredibly hard worker. It can be done.

[This message has been edited by TheUndertow (edited January 16, 2002).]

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folder icon   01-16-2002, 03:39 PM
Post #18
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TheUndertow:
I take exception to what you said, because you don't know me, but don't call me rich ever again. Just because I lived in the nice, quiet suburbs doesn't make me rich. My high school was good enough to get me accepted to college, I'll give you that much. I got student loans, and I worked for the down payment. I worked the maximum hours a week when I was under 18 (22hrs) and I worked 40hrs a week while still carrying a 3.98 in school when I turned 18, and I worked about 56hrs a week during the summer. I saved every fucking penny! I didn't have a TV, didn't have a computer, I didn't have video games, and I drove a 84 Capri stick that I bought for $300 to get to work.

</font>


Same way you just went and generalized about poor people 'never grabbing any oppurtunities'
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Ford won't hire people according to where they live? I totally don't agree with that. That's blatant discrimination, and I don't see how you can believe that is how big corporations operate. Ford has the Rouge plant right on the west side of Detroit, and tons of inner city people work there.
</font>

Good for Ford, too bad the closest plant to Chicago is in Joliet. Another thing, the fact is, yes, they DO. Maybe not Ford specifically, but many other companies and store chains.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
No jobs? How do you get food? Last time I checked, you get it at a store, and last time I checked, stores have people working at them.
</font>

Wow, your smart. Yeah, people work in stores. And yeah, u get food in stores. You just answered two questions i never asked. Congratulations...

Most large malls and small stores in the south side went belly up after the recession in the 80s. There isny much business round there, and many stores DONT wanan move there, like i said above (if you even read my thread, as it asnwered most the questions you still keep on asking) sotres wont open up in areas where they wont make money, and run the risk of being robbed or burned down.

Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
It may not be much, but you can always start saving.
</font>


All the money families make are needed to support the family. Saving isnt an option for many.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
If every single place in existance refuses to hire in Chicago based on where you live, then fine, you win, case closed.
</font>


This isnt in just Chicago, buddy. Would a grocery store in ur burb wanna hire a seedy smelly old guy from the other side of the tracks to work as a restocker, or that uptown guy who drives a benz? Yeah, case closed, whatever.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
If you are saying people are so poor that they can't save up for a $300 shitmobile like I had, or take whatever mass transit you have there, then fine. Then Chicago must really be Bombay-West.
</font>


Old cars break down fast, and they cant afford to repalce engine parts or have mechanics look at em. Besides, cars are unfeasable in enourmously big cities. Most rich people here dont even have em. Same with new york and LA. I never raised this issue, for the exact same reasson. People here ride public.
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
The schools suck ass? If that was the case, I would teach myself.
</font>


Dude, in Chicago! YOu said u live in Detroit! Last i checked, thats about 400 miles away. Chicago has the worst public education system in the country, and illinois is last place out of all the states in education. I specifically said this in my thread above. Did u even read it? Geez...
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I can read, and that's all you need to be able to learn anything in high school. You at least have books at the school, don't you? I'd take the GED then or whatever it is, then move on. Save up my money to get the hell out of there.
</font>


Wow, and u think ur the only person who has thought of this? U think they dont wanna get out of there? Raising money to get out and go where? It takes a lot of money, and most of all, it takes real learning, Good teachers dont go to shit schools. Teachers dotn give a damn even at my school, which i admit is bad, but there are a lot more worse. My HS has 8000 students with an average calss size of 50. Many students cant afford books, and a lot drop out becasue they need to support thier family by trying to look for a job. Its not eassy getting out of poverty as everyone says. Its a living hell. Yet everyone thinks a job and being able to read will suit you just fine...
Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Before you start saying that can't happen, there was a guy working here at Ford as a summer intern this year that is doing exactly that. His mom died and his dad is an alcholic, the guy taught himself, got his GED, and now he's going to Lawrence Tech. Yes, that guy is really smart, smart enough to teach himself -- but he is also an incredibly hard worker. It can be done.
</font>

Yes, ofocurse it can be done. Im not saying its impossible, but u goptta udnerstand, if its always that easy, EVERYONE would do it. Living in poverty struggling to live isnt something people enjoy doing. But that casse, very sadly, is rare. Most people who need money right away, cant save, dont have an education, join gangs or rob stores. Stores move out, gangs casue damamge, property values drop, its a never ending cycle of urban decay.


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folder icon   01-16-2002, 03:43 PM
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hey dimitri, how did you get so lucky as to get a computer and a preety good education when chicago is as bad as it sounds.

but then again, i come from a nuclear family(my dads an engineer at the electric plant), i live in the suberbs, i go to a private school, and ym parent make "enuff" money. i didnt have that bad of a home life.(BTW im not as rich as i sound, my parents barely come up twith the school money and i only go because im a dyslexic and need the help), im republican and white, and im only a teen.

i know alot of facts, but im not wise to the ways of the world. and i agree with anyone that says public school sux big time

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folder icon   01-16-2002, 03:48 PM
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First, you are extremely angry at the government. I admit, the government has its problems, and many, and usually I'm not one to stand up for them. But here you are just being somewhat unfair. Its not like the government magically creates money and gives it away, and its not like the government finances the city anyway. Why do you think they call it local government? I'm just saying, if you want a dictator running your life, thats your choice. The problem isn't really the US Government, its more the local government.

Alright, dimitri, you COMPLETELY missed his points. First, you said that no one can jobs, because there is nowhere to get jobs. He replied, then how do people eat?
If people don't have stores to buy food, then how do they feed themselves? If they do have stores, then why can't they get a job there?
Either way, your explanation doesn't make sense.

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folder icon   01-16-2002, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by The_Lone_Gunman*:
hey dimitri, how did you get so lucky as to get a computer and a preety good education when chicago is as bad as it sounds.

but then again, i come from a nuclear family(my dads an engineer at the electric plant), i live in the suberbs, i go to a private school, and ym parent make "enuff" money. i didnt have that bad of a home life.(BTW im not as rich as i sound, my parents barely come up twith the school money and i only go because im a dyslexic and need the help), im republican and white, and im only a teen.

i know alot of facts, but im not wise to the ways of the world. and i agree with anyone that says public school sux big time

</font>

Computer was a gift and i never did say i ever got a good education in school. Shit, i dont. I suck at math and shit, but my school isnt as bad as others.

Chicago isnt one HUGE slum, i mean, its pretty big. 3 million people and 300 square miles, its got its good areas and bad areas. South and southwest side, near west side, and southeasst side are the shitty areas. Far west side, far south side, near north and north sides, far north and northwest sides, and downtown are all pretty nice and elustrious. I live in a lower middle class area on the southwest side, about 20 miles from downtown and 7 to 8 miles from the city limits. Its not bad here, but my hood is in the same district as the 'abandoned grid', a streach of city thats been abaonded and cut offf from most city services. So my school is on the crappy side, and the economic blight is spreading to my area as a lot of stores are closing and getting bulldozed for 45 floor project housign skirises.

I dont really have a nuclear family ,as my mom was shot when i was 7 and my dad is more or less indifferent about me. I plan to die at 25 cuz i dotn wanna live any longer unless i get to go to UofI and never return to the urban wasteland i once called home. Even as a state sponceored school, tuition is gonna be a bitch to pay, especially since im not gonna have any parents paying for me.

So, when i say i know best about some situations, it really pisses me off when suburbans say 'No, your wrong!'



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folder icon   01-16-2002, 04:05 PM
Post #22
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No really, you missed his point. TheUnderTow says Teach Yourself, and then you said the school system was terrible. That doesn't really matter if you teach yourself does it? I mean, if you can read, then you probably can do it. I mean, everyone in my High School thinks I'm a genius just because I can do stuff well (you know, like score real high on SAT's and junk), but it doesn't really matter. I mean, I probably do get a good education, but hell, teachers still are incredibly dumb sometimes, and often I find I am teaching myself lessons. I mean people can improve on their life, but its true, people get sucked into gangs and gang life quite easily. I mean, to most people, its a choice between working hard for most of their life or just hanging out and escaping from cops(not very often, most cops don't care about the inner city areas) and gangs. In gangs, life is just less work, but more dangerous. So if they are willing to take the chance of joining a gang, they probably do. Look, right now I admit, I am a suburban white guy, maybe I don't know stuff about the inner city (I should know some, I used to live in Philadelphia, and I live less than 2 minutes from the city still). But I'm just saying, gangs sometimes are the easier choice for many people.

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folder icon   01-16-2002, 04:12 PM
Post #23
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Its not that eassy to teach urself highschool lessons. Obviously, then teachers wouldnt be needed, or school, at all.
Its pretty cool that u can teach urself stuff. And ya, some people here can too. I know kids in my school who have gotten 30s on thier ACT. Dont mean they got a bright future. Soem cant afford college and dont even plan on higher education, because they need to get jobs to support thier already stringed family income. It really sucks when stuff liek that happens...

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folder icon   01-16-2002, 06:03 PM
Post #24
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Dimitri, I never said it was easy. I just made the point that it can be done. The gist of your posts were that it wasn't the people's fault, it's the government's fault, the school's fault, and inner city people are completely helpless and joining a gang WAS THEIR ONLY OPTION. I don't think it's their only option.

I chatted with my dad about this when I got home from work (it did interest me) and he has a similar outlook. My grandparents came from Poland, and my dad grew up in Hamtramck, with isn't necessarily the most wonderful place to grow up in. Not as bad as Chicago, but defenitely not suburbia. They were pretty poor. My grandparents believed so strongly in education that they saved their money and sent him to a Catholic school. They were poor, but they still managed to save money! After high school dad saved up enough money from working to go to Wayne State. He got a degree in industrial design and an MBA. After that, he was in the Navy, he served in Vietnam, came home and started out working for Chrysler initially. Soon, he switched to Ford (I don't know why, didn't ask) and he worked there till he was 61. He's retired now.

His view is that education is the key. He believes that no school is so bad that colleges won't admit you. He said likely the biggest pressure in school is the fear of doing well and being called a teacher's pet, which will get you beat up (or killed) all the time. So he thinks kids are intimidated from doing well in school. You have realize also that when he was in high school, kids didn't shoot each other, and if you were athletic, no one tried to beat you up if you were a teacher's pet. So he had a kind of immunity to be smart because he was athletic at the same time.

Then I asked about his views about prejudice. He said without a doubt there is prejudice against black people, maybe to the point that they would have a hard time finding a job, but not to the point that they couldn't find a single job anywhere if they really tried to find one. He also said there were A LOT (in his words) of cases where black people lacked discipline because they live in broken homes and had a terrible childhood, but they found their way through the discipline in the Navy. He said he knew black people from the worst backgrounds imaginable and made something of themselves after their Navy service. He said it wasn't all happy endings, there were many blacks that went back to the slums and made nothing of themselves, also.

I know my dad and I don't know everything, but there are always options to joining a gang. I understand your implied point that it takes money to make money as well, though. I'm not stupid, college doesn't come for free, I had to pay for it (am still paying for it) myself. I never said it was easy, I only said it was possible.

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folder icon   01-19-2002, 12:40 AM
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Man, firstly, things are different today than when they were when ur grandparents came here .Secodnly, if there was a catholic school in that area, then in no way is it that bad a place. Sure, it wasnt 'suburbia' as u put it, but damn, i bet u there werent gangs there.

I already told u yeah, there are ways to get out, and education is the key, but many cant afford catholic schools, and in these areas, public sucks ass. College is totally out of the question for many of these kids. about 75% of my class are gonna try to find jobs right after highschool, if they even can. And again, many of them have just McDonalds in thier futures. They dont make much money that way, and they are led asstray to gangs.

Jesus man, not everyone wants to join the army or navy. Not that you'd find a recruitment office anyhwere nearby. And yeah, there is job disrimination, and its not just skin. I never said rascism. Its location. Which is very much true. Companies dont wanna hire whatthey consider 'seedy' characters. Also, like i siad, in an economically blighted area, jobs are scarce.
Its nice that ur dad agrees with you (yeah, why not) but he dosent live here, so its not really impressing me that ur trying to school me on the ghetto, aight?

Not the governments fault? Ill say this, cities were fine until the Cold War sihponed 60% of the nation;s bugdet to defense and too kaway from city funding. Went downhill from there. Social and urban reconstruction takes forever. Dont expect people to jsut get jobs. When ur family has been on welfare for generations, its hard to get out. Its an everlasting circle of debt.

Ofcourse joining gangs isnt thier only option, but sometimes, it is. THis is a soulless and visionless generatino being rasied in a crumbling warzone. There are no role models. Disillusionment runs the world here. Join gangs, do drug, commit suicide, wahtever, as long as it takes yout mind off the shit world, a world crumbling before your eyes. Its a bottomless pit. You wanna climb out, but you havent even reached the bottom...

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folder icon   01-19-2002, 01:09 AM
Post #26
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You say it is the government's fault, and partially, it is. But you act like the government should just fund Chicago. Thats not exactly how it works dude...

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folder icon   01-19-2002, 01:11 AM
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Its just not Chicago. Almost every major city in the US gets federal funding and aid. Why? Cities are totally non profit. They lose money. They barely get any money from the businesses they host, that all goes to the gov. If cities dont get federal funding, they crumble. Happened during the Cold War, fucked up the inner city. Now suburbs are leaching cities dry. Man, look it up if u want. America's cities are going down the shitter.

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folder icon   01-19-2002, 03:08 AM
Post #28
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Dimitri, it my be hard to get out of the slums, but nobody is forcing any body to break the law, atleast to an extent that will get the police putting you on record. You have to feel shitty when there is a guy who works two jobs just to feed his family, but it doesn't go over well to emotionally fragile simpletons who decide to wander around and break stuff.

Chicago is 300 square miles, that is like less than eighteen by eighteen, too spread out for a car, my ass. You really cram the people together. Do you have lawns?

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folder icon   01-19-2002, 12:01 PM
Post #29
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Look, i dont support gangs, but people dont join gangs cuz they just feel like it. I just wanted to point out sometimes its the only choice. Not alwasy, but many times, yes. Jobs are scarce, especially in economically blighted neighborhoods, and education isnt the key in the worst schools in america, in the state (illinois) that is last in education in the country.

And, actually, Chicago itself is 30 X 10 miles, 30 along the lake and 10 miles inland. Urban sprwal spreads out for about 20 to 30 miles beyond that. From downtown, u gotta drive about 50 miles out to get rural.

Lawns? Depends where u at. I do have one, but it ist exactly spacious. You gotta live by the outer rim of the city. But for the rest, no, no lawns. Average population density is 10,000 people per sq mile, however, many places exceed 5 times that.

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folder icon   01-21-2002, 01:43 PM
Post #30
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Dmitri, how are suburbs leeching of the city? You say "look it up" but I'm an engineer, not a historian or an economy guy, and it will take a long time for me to find that sort of info. If you don't care to tell me, then fine.

What I don't understand is how you want more federal money for the cities, which will come from people like me, and then you bad mouth us. A lot of white middle-class people share the same views as me, and some are a lot more callous and heartless. We have our own problems, why should we cough up money to a bunch of poor people that call us retarded suburbans? Pardon me if I'm mistaken, and this isn't meant to be a cocky statement, but aren't we the only friends you've got?

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folder icon   01-26-2002, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by TheUndertow:
Dmitri, how are suburbs leeching of the city? You say "look it up" but I'm an engineer, not a historian or an economy guy, and it will take a long time for me to find that sort of info. If you don't care to tell me, then fine.

What I don't understand is how you want more federal money for the cities, which will come from people like me, and then you bad mouth us. A lot of white middle-class people share the same views as me, and some are a lot more callous and heartless. We have our own problems, why should we cough up money to a bunch of poor people that call us retarded suburbans? Pardon me if I'm mistaken, and this isn't meant to be a cocky statement, but aren't we the only friends you've got?
</font>

No, gangs are, hence, thats why poor people run to join gangs, not to hug suburbans. See the trend? Ahh, yes, its all coming together.

Suburbs leech of cities, ofcourse. Thats the whole purpose of a 'burb. People work in cities, demand city services and space. Instead of living in the city, they live in suburbs. They use city services as much as people who live in it, but pay no property taxes to the city. When white flight occurs (technical term, it means as minorities move into a neighborhood, whites leave it, happens EVERYWHERE), they flee to the suburbs (Geez, black people dont bite ), away from the city. They still work there. So the city has to support them, and earns less money to run the same bugdet. This, my freind, is a deficit. Whether ur an engineer or a docotor or just a plain moron, im sure u realize that a deficit is bad and you lose money. Cities then have to cut such things as social services and education (education seems to be a favorite) School deterioration destroys entire generations of people, and lowers the property value of the neighborhood, in effect, slummifying areas. All cuz of a shortage of cash.

Basically, you guys take city jobs from city residents, depriving them of money, waste city resources without the city earning property taxes from you in repayment, and thus the city falls in debt and its people jobless.

Why do you gotta pay for us u ask? Its cuz we pay for you.

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folder icon   01-30-2002, 08:50 AM
Post #32
TheUndertow

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I don't see how all suburbans are somehow leeching off the city. I'm curious as to what metro services I'm apperantly using. My job is in Dearborn, which is west of Detroit. I work as a research engineer, so I don't look at it as I'm taking a job away from a less educated inner-city person. What city services you believe the suburbans use? Inner-city people take some jobs away from us too, because they would probably not be able to support themselves otherwise. So it goes both ways. I don't have any idea what the balance is between inner-city people taking suburban jobs or vice versa to make a decision who owes who more. I think your opinion is that suburbans take all the inner city jobs and inner city people can't take suburban jobs, so there is this imbalance, which I don't completely buy without more reasoning as to you why you believe that.

I think the main problem here is that the rich inner city tax base is gone for the most part. You look at cities like New York, they at least have Manhattan and the rich million-dollar apartments. Detroit doesn't have anything like that. Detroit is nothing but projects, and there is no reason for an educated white collar worker to live down there. So if I want to raise my children in a normal, sane environment, I'm going to live in the suburbs. Does the city suffer as a result of me living here? I don't doubt it, because they would get more tax and more revenue if I lived down there, but I'm not going to go on some personal crusade and live in a slum for the betterment of the city.

I think the main thing to look at is what caused the white flight in the first place, which is crime. If the rich people were in the city to start out with, the city must have been well off enough originally to protect them. But eventually there is some amount of overpopulation, and not enough white collar inner city jobs to maintain the necessary city revenue to support the police properly. So, crime starts to occur. Once crime starts, then it's all downhill, cause the white flight is gonna happen. If there is a better place to live, people are going to live there if they can. Then the city starts rotting at the core, like you described earlier.

I think that once this occurs, it's very difficult if near impossible to reverse it, as I imagine you know pretty well. But blaming it all on suburbans seems kind of base to me. If you were in our position, I imagine you'd likely do the exact same thing. It's not being greedy or heartless, it's just ensuring a safe life where I can raise children properly, which I can't get in the city. I don't see the city-suburb dynamic as working both ways like you believe it does. People leave the city cause they're scared, and once they leave they're not coming back. I don't know how a city can possibly revitalize itself when that occurs because there is absolutely no incentive for people to go back to the city. So the city becomes a cess pool. I'm not a city planner, but I don't see any easy way to reverse that.

[This message has been edited by TheUndertow (edited January 30, 2002).]

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