ForumsX
The forums of StarCraftLive.net


top_calendar.gif top_members.gif top_faq.gif top_search.gif top_home.gif    

vb_bullet.gif ForumsX > General Discussion > Serious Discussion > Violence in American And Our PostModern Way of Life
Search this Thread:

newthread reply Serious Discussion
prev.gif Previous Thread | Next Thread next.gif
Linear Hybrid Threaded

Violence in American And Our PostModern Way of Life  Pages (2): [1] 2 »
folder icon   11-13-2007, 02:10 PM
Violence in American And Our PostModern Way of Life Post #1
so and so

Moderator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2001
Location: Boston, for now...
Posts: 5,764 pospospos

So, I've been showing Bowling for Columbine to students in my classes, as a way for them to learn more about America (and why I left). Watching it over and over's got me worrying about all these topics, and I figure it'd be good to talk about it here. So without going into too much of it (I assume we've all watched it), let me just ask,

Why is America so violent, and why in specific places in America?

__________________
"Do you masturbate to your own rhetoric?" - Kegel
"The irony of this topic makes me want to fist myself with a pinecone." - Dark Jester
"No ones life is that interesting unless it involves war, porn, or zombies." - Urin Bloodface
"Any country that owes their existence to the french doesn't deserve to be a country." - Love
"i only eat yogurt with a minimum ph of 4.5." - Pld
"I had my utensils removed last summer." - Kjell Thusaud
"Fuck reality, I prefer vodka." - Sammy
Posts: 5,764 pospospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-13-2007, 02:24 PM
Post #2
Friend of Fidel

Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Mar 19 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,804 pos

I'll let you know in case you missed the news that a week ago there was a very violent school shooting right here in Finland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokela_school_shooting

btw what do you mean by post modern in this context?

__________________
Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded.
Chairman Sheng-ji Yang, "Looking God in the Eye"
Posts: 2,804 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_icq.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-13-2007, 03:21 PM
Post #3
so and so

Moderator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2001
Location: Boston, for now...
Posts: 5,764 pospospos

I mean our culture and society, post 1960. So what's your response to the finnish shooting? And, why did that shit have to happen on my birthday?

__________________
"Do you masturbate to your own rhetoric?" - Kegel
"The irony of this topic makes me want to fist myself with a pinecone." - Dark Jester
"No ones life is that interesting unless it involves war, porn, or zombies." - Urin Bloodface
"Any country that owes their existence to the french doesn't deserve to be a country." - Love
"i only eat yogurt with a minimum ph of 4.5." - Pld
"I had my utensils removed last summer." - Kjell Thusaud
"Fuck reality, I prefer vodka." - Sammy
Last edited by so and so on 11-13-2007 at 03:29 PM.
Posts: 5,764 pospospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-13-2007, 03:52 PM
Post #4
K0d0

Night Elf Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Oct 03 2001
Location: Sweden!!!
Posts: 1,899 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
I mean our culture and society, post 1960. So what's your response to the finnish shooting? And, why did that shit have to happen on my birthday?
Well, Finland lies third on the gun ownership chart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_...y_gun_ownership

__________________
Teehee.
Posts: 1,899 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_icq.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-13-2007, 06:16 PM
Post #5
Black~Enthusiasm

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Sep 10 2001
Location: Quebec,Canada
Posts: 4,980 pospos

Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
I mean our culture and society, post 1960. So what's your response to the finnish shooting? And, why did that shit have to happen on my birthday?

Is that really what postmodern mean? I thought postmodernism was about analyzing the subjective discours that created modernism, to give it new meaning and significations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K0d0
Well, Finland lies third on the gun ownership chart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_...y_gun_ownership


Its funny how if you would take away the United States, the correllation between murder rate and gunownership rate would be around zero. Britain is not even on the list of the gun ownership chart, yet its murder rate isnt even comparable to Switzerland's murder rate, which rank 4 on the chart.

Posts: 4,980 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-14-2007, 03:12 AM
Post #6
K0d0

Night Elf Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Oct 03 2001
Location: Sweden!!!
Posts: 1,899 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

Its funny how if you would take away the United States, the correllation between murder rate and gunownership rate would be around zero. Britain is not even on the list of the gun ownership chart, yet its murder rate isnt even comparable to Switzerland's murder rate, which rank 4 on the chart.

Just forwarding a possible reason. Of course the factors behind the occurrence of a school shooting are extremely complex.

But I would really like the facts from what you claim. Wikipedia will do . I mean this: "how if you would take away the United States, the correllation between murder rate and gunownership rate would be around zero."

__________________
Teehee.
Posts: 1,899 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_icq.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-14-2007, 04:06 AM
Post #7
so and so

Moderator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2001
Location: Boston, for now...
Posts: 5,764 pospospos

"Is that really what postmodern mean? I thought postmodernism was about analyzing the subjective discours that created modernism, to give it new meaning and significations."

Yeah, something that happened starting around 1960 - as a reaction to the horrors of modern life. Modernism is basically optamistic about the future, whereas post-modernism is pessimistic. That's an over simplification but it's about right. It also means that people live differently than they did say, 60 years ago.

Yeah, and that zero-correlation thing... that made no sense. first you say there's no correlation. Then you say Britain has less guns and less violence than Switzerland, which would suggest there is a correlation. I don't know those exact statistics, but it seems your grammar got all screwy.

__________________
"Do you masturbate to your own rhetoric?" - Kegel
"The irony of this topic makes me want to fist myself with a pinecone." - Dark Jester
"No ones life is that interesting unless it involves war, porn, or zombies." - Urin Bloodface
"Any country that owes their existence to the french doesn't deserve to be a country." - Love
"i only eat yogurt with a minimum ph of 4.5." - Pld
"I had my utensils removed last summer." - Kjell Thusaud
"Fuck reality, I prefer vodka." - Sammy
Posts: 5,764 pospospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-14-2007, 07:15 AM
Post #8
Gaggin

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: May 03 2001
Location: Manexico, VA
Posts: 4,665 pospos
Velentris on Shadowsong

He's saying that Britain has a much more violent crime than Switzerland, yet Switzerland has way more guns.

The drug trade is primarily why the U.S. has so much violent crimes, that and we also except a fuckload of immigrants from war-torn countries like El Salvador and Honduras. Colombia is always #1 or close to it on murder rates, and it is also primarily due to the drug trade.

__________________
Posts: 4,665 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-14-2007, 01:30 PM
Post #9
so and so

Moderator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2001
Location: Boston, for now...
Posts: 5,764 pospospos

Where's an example of British violence? According to Bowling for Columbine, there's only about 68 gun murders a year.

__________________
"Do you masturbate to your own rhetoric?" - Kegel
"The irony of this topic makes me want to fist myself with a pinecone." - Dark Jester
"No ones life is that interesting unless it involves war, porn, or zombies." - Urin Bloodface
"Any country that owes their existence to the french doesn't deserve to be a country." - Love
"i only eat yogurt with a minimum ph of 4.5." - Pld
"I had my utensils removed last summer." - Kjell Thusaud
"Fuck reality, I prefer vodka." - Sammy
Posts: 5,764 pospospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-14-2007, 04:06 PM
Post #10
Darkassasinr

Tauren


Avatar

Joined: May 07 2001
Location: Some place between confusion and understanding.
Posts: 1,130 pos

Bowling for Columbine should be taken with a serious helping of salt. It's one man's distorted view, and I really wouldn't take it as factual in any sense.

__________________
My cynicism is only outstripped by my naivete
Posts: 1,130 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-14-2007, 05:14 PM
Post #11
kiljaeden

Night Elf Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Feb 27 2003
Location: California
Posts: 1,913 pos
Ghonth on Aeries Peak

One reason why Americans may be so violent is parents not setting enough ground rules for their children. Or lack of parents altogether. I'm firmly in the category of people who believe that fatherless children are a lot more likely to end up screwed up in some fashion or another.

__________________
There he is, there's the gay puppet bomber! - Jeff Dunham

To find his equal an Irishman is forced to talk to talk to God. - Stephen

Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. - 2 Nephi 2:25, Book of Mormon

If it wiggles, then it's biology; if it stinks, then it's chemistry; and if it doesn't work, then it's physics.
Posts: 1,913 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_yahoo.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-15-2007, 02:40 AM
Post #12
so and so

Moderator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2001
Location: Boston, for now...
Posts: 5,764 pospospos

"Bowling for Columbine should be taken with a serious helping of salt. It's one man's distorted view, and I really wouldn't take it as factual in any sense."

The movie obviously has an agenda, but that doesn't mean everything was a lie. If you scroll up to wikipedia right now, you'll see that the number of deaths per 100,000 is much higher in Switzerland than in the UK. It's just helping prove the correlation to gun violence. Finland also has one of the highest rates in Europe. Finland, Northern Ireland, and Switzerland are all about 6.6-6.8, whereas other Euro nations are much lower. Of course America still has over twice their violence with guns.

The real anomolies are Mexico and Brazil which have much less guns, but almost the same level of violence as the US.

__________________
"Do you masturbate to your own rhetoric?" - Kegel
"The irony of this topic makes me want to fist myself with a pinecone." - Dark Jester
"No ones life is that interesting unless it involves war, porn, or zombies." - Urin Bloodface
"Any country that owes their existence to the french doesn't deserve to be a country." - Love
"i only eat yogurt with a minimum ph of 4.5." - Pld
"I had my utensils removed last summer." - Kjell Thusaud
"Fuck reality, I prefer vodka." - Sammy
Last edited by so and so on 11-15-2007 at 03:03 AM.
Posts: 5,764 pospospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-15-2007, 02:43 AM
Post #13
K0d0

Night Elf Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Oct 03 2001
Location: Sweden!!!
Posts: 1,899 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiljaeden
One reason why Americans may be so violent is parents not setting enough ground rules for their children. Or lack of parents altogether. I'm firmly in the category of people who believe that fatherless children are a lot more likely to end up screwed up in some fashion or another.
Yep, but at the same time you can have too many rules. It might just be a feature of the American film industry, but this matter of being "grounded" for comitting a wrong is just idiotically hilarious.

Does anyone have any justification for it?

__________________
Teehee.
Posts: 1,899 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_icq.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-15-2007, 03:42 AM
Post #14
so and so

Moderator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2001
Location: Boston, for now...
Posts: 5,764 pospospos

here's an interesting site: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/off...rime/index.html

I assume grounding has helped in some cases and not in others, much like all punishments. It's hard for me to piece together just why America's so messed up. One question I have is, is it really so much more messed up than the rest of the world? The main blind spot in Bowling for Columbine is it equated gun violence with all violence. What about other forms of assault and murder? What are the overall murder rates in other countries, and how do they compare to the US?

Another statistic that would've gone a long way toward answering the question would be to look at the most common reasons for crime. Why are gun murders most commonly committed? Is it against strangers or family? Is it related to theft, or drugs, or just personal disputes and grudges? How does the motivation change as people get older? Anyone have any answers?

__________________
"Do you masturbate to your own rhetoric?" - Kegel
"The irony of this topic makes me want to fist myself with a pinecone." - Dark Jester
"No ones life is that interesting unless it involves war, porn, or zombies." - Urin Bloodface
"Any country that owes their existence to the french doesn't deserve to be a country." - Love
"i only eat yogurt with a minimum ph of 4.5." - Pld
"I had my utensils removed last summer." - Kjell Thusaud
"Fuck reality, I prefer vodka." - Sammy
Last edited by so and so on 11-15-2007 at 04:41 AM.
Posts: 5,764 pospospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-15-2007, 10:47 AM
Post #15
~Crusader~

Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Jul 17 2001
Location: Candyland
Posts: 2,938 pospos
Mailpouch on Burning Legion

Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
So, I've been showing Bowling for Columbine to students in my classes, as a way for them to learn more about America (and why I left).

Picked a pretty bad movie to educate children on America with.

You do know that the world is a brutal place. We aren't becoming more violent. Humans have always been violent. That is the way it has been, is now, and probably ever will be.

__________________
Dynasties -The Rules
Dynasties: The Dawn -The First Age
Posts: 2,938 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_icq.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-15-2007, 11:46 AM
Post #16
so and so

Moderator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2001
Location: Boston, for now...
Posts: 5,764 pospospos

Yeah I do know that, but why is it a bad movie? Can anyone state something specific about it they don't agree with? Oh, and I mostly teach adults - there's one class of 15 year-olds, but I didn't show them the film.

__________________
"Do you masturbate to your own rhetoric?" - Kegel
"The irony of this topic makes me want to fist myself with a pinecone." - Dark Jester
"No ones life is that interesting unless it involves war, porn, or zombies." - Urin Bloodface
"Any country that owes their existence to the french doesn't deserve to be a country." - Love
"i only eat yogurt with a minimum ph of 4.5." - Pld
"I had my utensils removed last summer." - Kjell Thusaud
"Fuck reality, I prefer vodka." - Sammy
Posts: 5,764 pospospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-15-2007, 02:18 PM
Post #17
K0d0

Night Elf Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Oct 03 2001
Location: Sweden!!!
Posts: 1,899 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
Yeah I do know that, but why is it a bad movie? Can anyone state something specific about it they don't agree with? Oh, and I mostly teach adults - there's one class of 15 year-olds, but I didn't show them the film.
Well, do you sincerely believe that the movie is a good representation of the US?

Factually, it is by no means unbiased.

__________________
Teehee.
Posts: 1,899 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_icq.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-15-2007, 02:20 PM
Post #18
Black~Enthusiasm

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Sep 10 2001
Location: Quebec,Canada
Posts: 4,980 pospos

Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
If you scroll up to wikipedia right now, you'll see that the number of deaths per 100,000 is much higher in Switzerland than in the UK.

Yeah, but what about the number of gun related death?

Posts: 4,980 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-15-2007, 04:56 PM
Post #19
Kjell Thusaud

War Chief


Avatar

Joined: Aug 21 2003
Location: www.Giraffese.cx
Posts: 4,371 posposposposposhighpos
Micky Mouse on Crack

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiljaeden
One reason why Americans may be so violent is parents not setting enough ground rules for their children. Or lack of parents altogether. I'm firmly in the category of people who believe that fatherless children are a lot more likely to end up screwed up in some fashion or another.


I think it is because american parents gives the message that violence is an acceptable way of getting what you wan't, thus the children has no qwalms of striking and eaven killing one another to acieve what they want.

__________________
Give a player a fish, and hell probably try to sell it to an NPC fisherman.

Teach a player to fish, and next week hell show up with the book, The Complete Adventuring Fisherman. Hell start hunting for some monstrous leviathan to catch and enslave, and hell be dual-wielding two fishing poles
Posts: 4,371 posposposposposhighpos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-15-2007, 06:41 PM
Post #20
Darkassasinr

Tauren


Avatar

Joined: May 07 2001
Location: Some place between confusion and understanding.
Posts: 1,130 pos

Specifically I disagree with the fact that the movie is totally unscientific, he only states the "facts"( I use the term loosely) that help his agenda, and it's easy for someone who is uninformed to take it with no consideration, it presents its self as truth when in all reality it's something more distorted, and significantly less honest.

Did you know that year more children drowned in shallow pools than were victims of accidental gun violence?( in the U.S.)

__________________
My cynicism is only outstripped by my naivete
Posts: 1,130 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-15-2007, 07:50 PM
Post #21
Ultra_punk

Administrator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 30 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos

I haven't looked at the types of crimes going on in North America, but in general, over hte past 10-15 years, crime rate has been dropping. Prevalence of guns makes crime easy and it makes killing easy, thus making violence more apparent, but i do not think, by any means, it is the cause of violence. This is much like blaming the mass-energy equivalence formula (E = mc^2) for the threat of nuclear war.

One should focus, i believe, more on the social values, norms and aggressiveness taught to new members of society to seek out answers to their adulthood behaviour. Largely, I will limit my comparison between America and Canada, because with such similar cultures, we may be more able to guess at what problems there exist in America that cause the significant difference in crime rate (Canada's crime rate i think is around 20x lower than America... i could have that wrong... in any case, Canada's crime rate < America's crime rate)

In America (and Canada), there are a disproportionate number of children who live in families that transit through divorce, split up and other domestic trouble. A lot of families do not have any person taking care of the home, or the workload isnt shared properly and the hometaker is overly stressed. This, i believe, creates an increased lack of transference of social values to the new generation. The entrenched ideals of previous generations continue to exist but the actual enforcement and implementation is lost in domestic turmoil. Children grow up with very little social conditioning leading to anarchist (and therefore as likely to be good as criminal) behaviour.

Now, the main difference I see between Canada and America is economic equality. Minorities in America live in poverty and we see a very high rate of drug trade, crime and violence in those sectors. Minorities in Canada (except black people and natives) typically enjoy a standard of life better than white people, and there is fairly little crime. The median household income in canada is far higher than the American median household income, meaning a far smaller rich-poor divide. I think the increased american poverty leads to much higher crime.

In fact, Canada's poverty rate is much higher than that of Europe, and we can see that Europe's crime rate is actually quite low. We take this to the extreme and we look at certain african nations, the poor sub-saharan nations are constantly deluged in war and violence, while the richer coastal nations are much more peaceful. The middle east were there is vast poverty, there is extremely high rates of violence, especialy with respect to domestic terrorism.

Of course, money alone doesn't change everything, but money is the main difference between America and Canada. If we were to look at social values... for instance alcohol. The concept of teenage drinking and university keg parties and so on seems largely a north american concept. In europe, yes you would drink, but its not a big deal. The strict and illogical social rules lead to idiotic behaviour because the rules dont make sense. If we could properly justify anti-drinking attitudes then it wouldn't be such a problem.

I see family rated fairly low on the scale of who you care about in the majority white society. Knowing people beyond the immediate family seems to be incredibly difficult. Joking about how much your in-laws suck appears to be a common theme. A lack of family values by itself wouldn't be so much of a problem if it didnt also get attached to a rejection of good social values (like not being an asshole, or not caring about your kids, or not caring about other people's problems until they go to shoot up a school).

__________________

a suicide bomber taken out by a suicide bomber? priceless
Masey209: JUST MAKE HER HAVE SEX WITH ME!!
Enix: Oops added an extra zero to it just like your hydro bill
CowUltrapunk: SLOW
CowUltrapunk: slow as your dick
dimitri583: i told you
dimitri583: my dick is fast as fuck
CowUltrapunk: working on your unspeakable weapon of mass atrocities?
ZoraxP: Yep. I call it the USA.
Urin Bloodface: i know ontario
Urin Bloodface: ive even been to vancover
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif im_yahoo.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-16-2007, 04:15 AM
Post #22
kiljaeden

Night Elf Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Feb 27 2003
Location: California
Posts: 1,913 pos
Ghonth on Aeries Peak

Quote:
Originally Posted by K0d0
Yep, but at the same time you can have too many rules. It might just be a feature of the American film industry, but this matter of being "grounded" for comitting a wrong is just idiotically hilarious.

Does anyone have any justification for it?


What I meant was that they're not setting teaching them the correct way to act in adult society (yeah, I was completely off, sue me).

The justification for "grounding" is that, when children misbehave, the parents remove some privilege that that child has for whatever period of time, which works just fine if the parent follows through. If the child starts crying or whining or complaining, and the parent immediately gives the child back the privilege, the parent just taught the child a lesson they'll have for the rest of their life: I can get whatever I want if I whine/cry/complain long enough, which is the wrong impression to be giving children, and yet all too often, it works in society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Thusaud
I think it is because american parents gives the message that violence is an acceptable way of getting what you wan't, thus the children has no qwalms of striking and eaven killing one another to acieve what they want.

Not in this day and age. That might have been true 50, 30, even 20 years ago, but not today. I think the main problem with violence is what I talked about above: if I whine enough, I'll get what I want. Pretty soon that translates into "I do whatever I want because my parents won't stop me" which, while it sucks, is how it works nowadays. People are only in it for number one, and screw everybody else.

__________________
There he is, there's the gay puppet bomber! - Jeff Dunham

To find his equal an Irishman is forced to talk to talk to God. - Stephen

Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. - 2 Nephi 2:25, Book of Mormon

If it wiggles, then it's biology; if it stinks, then it's chemistry; and if it doesn't work, then it's physics.
Posts: 1,913 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_yahoo.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-16-2007, 07:41 AM
Post #23
so and so

Moderator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2001
Location: Boston, for now...
Posts: 5,764 pospospos

"do you sincerely believe that the movie is a good representation of the US?"

Yes. And, unlike you, I've lived there for many years, in many different places.


"Yeah, but what about the number of gun related death?"

Yes, Gun related deaths are much higher in Switzerland than in GB. I'm telling you, just check wiki right now. Mexico and Brazil are the real anomalies because they have much less guns, yet near the same level of gun murders as the US.

__________________
"Do you masturbate to your own rhetoric?" - Kegel
"The irony of this topic makes me want to fist myself with a pinecone." - Dark Jester
"No ones life is that interesting unless it involves war, porn, or zombies." - Urin Bloodface
"Any country that owes their existence to the french doesn't deserve to be a country." - Love
"i only eat yogurt with a minimum ph of 4.5." - Pld
"I had my utensils removed last summer." - Kjell Thusaud
"Fuck reality, I prefer vodka." - Sammy
Posts: 5,764 pospospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-16-2007, 08:03 AM
Post #24
K0d0

Night Elf Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Oct 03 2001
Location: Sweden!!!
Posts: 1,899 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so

unlike you, I've lived there for many years, in many different places.

Of course, hence my asking .

__________________
Teehee.
Posts: 1,899 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_icq.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-16-2007, 04:37 PM
Post #25
so and so

Moderator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2001
Location: Boston, for now...
Posts: 5,764 pospospos

As for this:

"Specifically I disagree with the fact that the movie is totally unscientific, he only states the "facts"( I use the term loosely) that help his agenda, and it's easy for someone who is uninformed to take it with no consideration"

This is true to some degree, and I don't necessarily agree with all his accusations, and yet, even when you do know the true facts, it doesn't really counter all the things he's saying.

For example, Moore notes that, just an hour before the Columbine shooting, President Clinton dropped a bomb on a school in Kosovo, along with a hospital. What he doesn't say is, according to western news media, these buildings had been taken over by the Serbian military to try to avoid being bombed. Supposedly, they were empty of children and sick people. Were they really empty of civilians? I don't know, I'm not sure who to believe. I'd prefer to find a report that shows all the sites and bodies and states exactly who got hit. But regardless, Clinton bombed a school and a hospital. I suppose if it's helped create stability in the end for Kosovo, then it was worth it, but even so, these actions could influence kids who don't know better.

Moore also found Canadians who don't lock their door. Now, I've already asked Ultra and keeperofthegrave, our resident Canuks, if this is true (I never got around to asking Keeper, if he'd like to add his opinion). They say it's BS. Nevertheless, Moore did find some Canucks you don't lock their door, even in a large city.

And Ultra, if America has more poverty, why is it your unemployment up there has always been twice as high? Or is it?

__________________
"Do you masturbate to your own rhetoric?" - Kegel
"The irony of this topic makes me want to fist myself with a pinecone." - Dark Jester
"No ones life is that interesting unless it involves war, porn, or zombies." - Urin Bloodface
"Any country that owes their existence to the french doesn't deserve to be a country." - Love
"i only eat yogurt with a minimum ph of 4.5." - Pld
"I had my utensils removed last summer." - Kjell Thusaud
"Fuck reality, I prefer vodka." - Sammy
Posts: 5,764 pospospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-16-2007, 07:15 PM
Post #26
Ultra_punk

Administrator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 30 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos

Hmm... i dont remember telling you about not locking doors is BS, but it is.

In any case, unemployment is all about how you calculate it and another thing is that unemployment alone doesnt signify increased poverty (as in, the differences you see between USA and Canada). Canada is currently at a record low of 5.8% unemployment and i kinda forget what america is, but its usually a percent or two lower (not half as much).

The tricky thing about unemployment is that having a job doesnt equate to having a lot of money. America has abysmally low minimum wage laws, much less union power than Canada and generally no welfare state. Keeping these things in mind, all of which are almost universally agreed upon by economists that increase unemployment, Americans work more for less. It's been recently suggested (i dont know how to verify it) that the unemployment different between canada and america... 1.5% difference is due to accounting issues and the rest is because canada has higher minimum wage, more powerful unions forcing labour wages to be higher and provides vastly more welfare than america.

Americans can work and still be in complete poverty. As well, that situation makes it doubly worse. If you simply had no money, that woudl suck. If you had no money AND you had to work, well your stress is just basically infinite. I wouldn't be surprised if a person like that had no temper, taught their children absolutely nothing and barely be aware of whats going on. Bush could be enacting "Screw poor people out of education" act and they wouldnt know... oh wait bush already did that.

-----

Bombing kosovo and so on, i think had fairly little impact on how violent americans are. That's more like a symptom rather than a cause. The American attitude is just so gung-ho about this kind of stuff. There is a militarist culture down south.

Perhaps... it arises from ignorance. The American attitude of "i dont need to learn something right now" has become "i dont need to learn anything ever". Anybody who goes ahead to learn things and become intelligent is an outcast. They get bullied at school or are considered uncool to be with. I didn't find that to be the case where i was at high school, but every time a school shooting happens in america, it seems like there was just a general prejudice against some people until they began to fail to achieve and then the shit hits the fan.

American soldiers for instance, they dont get education, they learn how to shoot a gun, they all become heavily specialized. Nobody knows whats going on in the big picture, they're just cogs in a big mechanical engine. They're told not to think, just act on orders. I've seen Canadian training programme for reservists, its pretty extreme and they expect you to be intelligent. Granted, this is largely due to the small size of the Canadian Forces, but the concept is still there, where in America its this huge attitude of "you dont need to know".

You dont learn things, people become more stupid, more reactionary and with that comes violence. Imagine how easy it is to convince people that Islam dictates that women should be raped continuously for any infraction. If you know nothing about islam, anything anybody tells you is equally correct. Americans probably cant tell the difference between a sikh and osama bin laden. Its easy to come up with easy solutions, especially if you're ignorant of all else. Pick up a gun and shoot somebody, simple.

Theres no thought to consequences due to this ignorance. Let's go impose sanctions on a nation we dont like, that'll make it more democratic. Except, whats the consequence of a sanction? A poorer government? No, a poorer people, which disempowers them from acting. Exactly the opposite of what you wanted to do.

Or take Iraq, oh invading it will be great. Why? To take out WMDs? To take out a dictatorship? To spread democracy? A war is a war but consequences arent thoguht about. What if there are no WMDs? Oh but apparently the what if they had them is so much better to consider, except thats idiotic because you should invade everyone on that idea. Take out a dictatorship? When did war increase happiness in a region? Spread democracy? Bombing peopel who dont agree with you is about as far from democracy as you can get.

__________________

a suicide bomber taken out by a suicide bomber? priceless
Masey209: JUST MAKE HER HAVE SEX WITH ME!!
Enix: Oops added an extra zero to it just like your hydro bill
CowUltrapunk: SLOW
CowUltrapunk: slow as your dick
dimitri583: i told you
dimitri583: my dick is fast as fuck
CowUltrapunk: working on your unspeakable weapon of mass atrocities?
ZoraxP: Yep. I call it the USA.
Urin Bloodface: i know ontario
Urin Bloodface: ive even been to vancover
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif im_yahoo.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-18-2007, 07:41 AM
Post #27
so and so

Moderator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2001
Location: Boston, for now...
Posts: 5,764 pospospos

"Canada is currently at a record low of 5.8% unemployment and i kinda forget what america is, but its usually a percent or two lower (not half as much)."

Moore's movie was first shown in, what 2002? Some of the footage came from as early as 1999. It probably used the latest statistics from around 1999-2001. Do you know if Canadian unemployment was higher then?

__________________
"Do you masturbate to your own rhetoric?" - Kegel
"The irony of this topic makes me want to fist myself with a pinecone." - Dark Jester
"No ones life is that interesting unless it involves war, porn, or zombies." - Urin Bloodface
"Any country that owes their existence to the french doesn't deserve to be a country." - Love
"i only eat yogurt with a minimum ph of 4.5." - Pld
"I had my utensils removed last summer." - Kjell Thusaud
"Fuck reality, I prefer vodka." - Sammy
Posts: 5,764 pospospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-18-2007, 11:36 AM
Post #28
Ultra_punk

Administrator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 30 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos

It was about 6.5%, i'm just guessing at it, but it was 6 something percent. America was around 1 to 2 percent lower i think. However, since that time, Canada's economy has magically improved and the government has spent most of the surplus cash into cutting down the national debt by a few hundred billion dollars.

America's unemployment is hardly magical. A signfiicant portion of the population, especially most of the minorities, have crap ass jobs. That usually eliminates unemployment pretty easily.

__________________

a suicide bomber taken out by a suicide bomber? priceless
Masey209: JUST MAKE HER HAVE SEX WITH ME!!
Enix: Oops added an extra zero to it just like your hydro bill
CowUltrapunk: SLOW
CowUltrapunk: slow as your dick
dimitri583: i told you
dimitri583: my dick is fast as fuck
CowUltrapunk: working on your unspeakable weapon of mass atrocities?
ZoraxP: Yep. I call it the USA.
Urin Bloodface: i know ontario
Urin Bloodface: ive even been to vancover
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif im_yahoo.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-18-2007, 03:18 PM
Post #29
Darkassasinr

Tauren


Avatar

Joined: May 07 2001
Location: Some place between confusion and understanding.
Posts: 1,130 pos

UP, you do realize that in the American military you need a degree for officer candidacy of any sort, right? Also, the GI bill provides ~25,000 dollars for university education. Yes, there are ignorant people in our military, but I would be willing to wager that there are ignorant people in Canada's military as well, while perhaps not as many total, probably around the same percentage.

__________________
My cynicism is only outstripped by my naivete
Posts: 1,130 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-18-2007, 10:38 PM
Post #30
Ultra_punk

Administrator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 30 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkassasinr
UP, you do realize that in the American military you need a degree for officer candidacy of any sort, right? Also, the GI bill provides ~25,000 dollars for university education. Yes, there are ignorant people in our military, but I would be willing to wager that there are ignorant people in Canada's military as well, while perhaps not as many total, probably around the same percentage.

All western military requires officers to go to university (this is something of that ignorance thing im talking about ). Canada provides free post-secondary education for people who wish to join the army (any cost is alright). I suppose its an overgeneralization to speak of whats happening in Iraq as possibly the norm for all 1.4 million american military personnel, but it certainly does paint a bad picture.

Now, i went to find some stuff, i found this...
http://www.ecs.org/html/offsite.asp...F35345692%2Epdf

It's missing Canada from some of its key figures, but it does appear to indicate that America's education is below average amongst western society. There are some others that perform worse than America, so at least you can be happy that in some categories you arent the worst. What's strange is that according to this, americans have, on average, the most years in school, yet they perform poorly.

Now i've also heard Canada has the highest post-secondary education rate in G7 countries, but since i cant find anything that even shows any participation rate for anyone, i'll leave that one alone.

__________________

a suicide bomber taken out by a suicide bomber? priceless
Masey209: JUST MAKE HER HAVE SEX WITH ME!!
Enix: Oops added an extra zero to it just like your hydro bill
CowUltrapunk: SLOW
CowUltrapunk: slow as your dick
dimitri583: i told you
dimitri583: my dick is fast as fuck
CowUltrapunk: working on your unspeakable weapon of mass atrocities?
ZoraxP: Yep. I call it the USA.
Urin Bloodface: i know ontario
Urin Bloodface: ive even been to vancover
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif im_yahoo.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-18-2007, 11:00 PM
Post #31
Gaggin

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: May 03 2001
Location: Manexico, VA
Posts: 4,665 pospos
Velentris on Shadowsong

It's quite ignorant of you to say our military is ignorant because you don't think they're taught anything. Your military couldn't even wear the right uniforms for Afghanistan.


As it is, very few soldiers are "just trained how to fight." In fact, the U.S. military is an excellent choice for people who want to broaden their horizens. Soldiers get to travel to many foreign places and meet all sorts of people. Most soldiers will get to learn some sort of specialty, and all soldiers learn about survival skills(much more extensively than Canadian soldiers I might add). It's like being in boy scouts for the adult world. Engineers, scientists, programmers, marketers, salespeople, teachers, mechanics, architects, linguists, doctors, pilots, and much come out of the military with excellent credentials and on-hand experience that you can't even get at most universities. It's kind of funny how you say that our soldiers are ignorant, when it is you who is apparently ignorant to the facts at this time.

__________________
Posts: 4,665 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-18-2007, 11:15 PM
Post #32
Ultra_punk

Administrator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 30 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaggin
It's quite ignorant of you to say our military is ignorant because you don't think they're taught anything. Your military couldn't even wear the right uniforms for Afghanistan.


As it is, very few soldiers are "just trained how to fight." In fact, the U.S. military is an excellent choice for people who want to broaden their horizens. Soldiers get to travel to many foreign places and meet all sorts of people. Most soldiers will get to learn some sort of specialty, and all soldiers learn about survival skills(much more extensively than Canadian soldiers I might add). It's like being in boy scouts for the adult world. Engineers, scientists, programmers, marketers, salespeople, teachers, mechanics, architects, linguists, doctors, pilots, and much come out of the military with excellent credentials and on-hand experience that you can't even get at most universities. It's kind of funny how you say that our soldiers are ignorant, when it is you who is apparently ignorant to the facts at this time.


You sound like an army ad. They say the exact same things in every country.

Soldiers travel to foreign places, but you dont learn stuff. How many American soldiers in iraq speak arabic after years in there?

We could magically debate on survival skills that each military learns, but what does that mean? I remember it was stated that after 9/11, american soldiers would have to learn NBC warfare, which was strange, as canadian reservists already learned that for many years. Do American soldiers train in the arctic cold? No they probably train in american deserts in the south. Which is mroe extreme? I doubt you can compare the two.

Basically, what you've told me is that your unviersities suck ass and you gotta join the military to hope to get anywhere in life. That's not a good thing because no matter how "great" your military can be, its still better to receive civilian education than it is to receive military education. I know lots of Canadian reservists, who've trained hard, who've went on peacekeeping missions... i've known officers, i've known fighter pilots, you know what they all tell me? The military is god damn useless. It's only ancedotal evidence, but what does learning how to shoot a rifle do when you're working at IBM? Medic training, im sorry to say, doesn't prepare you to beocme a surgeon.

It is a well known fact (in economics) that people joining the military decreases GDP because its not useful and it never helps society produce more or become more efficient. That's why countries which enjoy peace shrug off mandatory military service, its incredibly damaging to people who were supposed to get post-secondary education (or just get a job) after graduating from high school.

In fact, let's ask -GRUNT- how useful his year in the military was. How he learned so much, that now, he has to go to university for the full time period to have a hope of getting a job. Let's also look at how women in singapore are now hiliariously doing better than men because they dont have to join the military.

---

Actually, u know whats even more funny, to learn to be a combat medic, you train with real paramedics first. So much for the military preparing you for civilian skills.

Also i shoudl say, if you cant get an education without first joinig the military, thats bad. It will also most definitely show soandso's problem, where america is violent. If education is attached to the military and the people are sent into combat situations where violence is commonplace, i find it likely that this transits back to american soil. Psychologically damaged individuals, abused personnel, possible rape and even accidentally killing civilians probably all lead to increased violence or depression/suicide.

__________________

a suicide bomber taken out by a suicide bomber? priceless
Masey209: JUST MAKE HER HAVE SEX WITH ME!!
Enix: Oops added an extra zero to it just like your hydro bill
CowUltrapunk: SLOW
CowUltrapunk: slow as your dick
dimitri583: i told you
dimitri583: my dick is fast as fuck
CowUltrapunk: working on your unspeakable weapon of mass atrocities?
ZoraxP: Yep. I call it the USA.
Urin Bloodface: i know ontario
Urin Bloodface: ive even been to vancover
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif im_yahoo.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-19-2007, 01:24 AM
Post #33
Gaggin

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: May 03 2001
Location: Manexico, VA
Posts: 4,665 pospos
Velentris on Shadowsong

Wow, you just contradicted yourself hardcore there. Countries with peace don't bother with mandatory military service? Since when is Singapore in a constant state of danger? GRUNT's military service probably didn't help him much because it IS mandatory, and yet Singapore doesn't have much of a military(naturally).

Maybe you don't realize this because you're in Canada and I'm 45 minutes away from the Pentagon, but soldiers learn a whole lot in their travels. I know many a military man who's learned Japanese, Korean, German, etc. from their travels to countries. And tell me, what are all those military surgeons doing in Iraq? NOT surgery? Let's face it, if dealing with patients in a warzone doesn't prepare you for an ER, nothing will.

But we can't always base a soldier's experience on wartime activities(and hopefully we won't have to). Which is more extreme, arctic conditions or desert conditions? You can't say one's worse than the other. Both types of environments have historically been treacherous for armies that aren't prepared, from the crusades to Stalingrad. Besides, how many hotzones around the world are there that have arctic conditions? There's certainly none of that in Africa or the Mideast, so it doesn't really help. However, it's a mute point since our soldiers also have training in arctic conditions, as well as many others that prepare our soldiers for scenarios. The Canadian military specializes mainly in forest and arctic warfare(which doesn't do shit for them in Afghanistan). The U.S. military has its weaknesses in certain conditions, mainly jungle warfare, but overall our military is capable of operating successfully in most scenarios. Our one big strength? URBAN warfare. Despite facing the most hardened fighters in Iraq that the Mideast has to offer(outside Israel), our soldiers have been overwhelmingly superior. Of course, it's like the politicians say, Iraq doesn't need a military solution, it needs a diplomatic solution, and for the past 8 years our government has been sadly lacking in that department.


I don't know where you got the idea that our universities suck ass, by international standards they're considered the best in the world on all levels, much better than Canadian ones. The military does make college alot easier finincially. Yes, military service doesn't help economically, but neither does violent conflicts, which is why countries have armies in the first place.


Back more onto the topic, mental stress on soldiers really has no correlation to violence in the U.S. Like I said before, it's mostly do to our addiction with drugs, both in trade and in usage. The U.S. consumes half the world's illicit drugs, which is 10X our share population-wise. This disparity certainly has had major consequences in our communities.

__________________
Posts: 4,665 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-19-2007, 03:05 PM
Post #34
so and so

Moderator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 28 2001
Location: Boston, for now...
Posts: 5,764 pospospos

"U.S. military is an excellent choice for people who want to broaden their horizens. Soldiers get to travel to many foreign places and meet all sorts of people."

And kill them. I'm sorry this sounds so much like an Onion article, I'm half certain its a direct quote somewhere. As for there being no correlation between the military and violence in America....

Both Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were trained by the US Army, and Eric Klebold's dad was an airforce pilot who dropped bombs on Iraq. These people created the worst acts of terrorism in America.

I support the idea of US troops getting education free for their sacrifices, but it shouldn't be poor people's only option, as it does have damaging psychological effects. I mean, just watch Jarhead.

__________________
"Do you masturbate to your own rhetoric?" - Kegel
"The irony of this topic makes me want to fist myself with a pinecone." - Dark Jester
"No ones life is that interesting unless it involves war, porn, or zombies." - Urin Bloodface
"Any country that owes their existence to the french doesn't deserve to be a country." - Love
"i only eat yogurt with a minimum ph of 4.5." - Pld
"I had my utensils removed last summer." - Kjell Thusaud
"Fuck reality, I prefer vodka." - Sammy
Posts: 5,764 pospospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   11-20-2007, 06:26 PM
Post #35
Gaggin

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: May 03 2001
Location: Manexico, VA
Posts: 4,665 pospos
Velentris on Shadowsong

It's funny though, the whole thing with Jarhead was that they never even saw combat, and the psychological consequences were horrid.

Mcveigh and them are obviously the exceptions, there's always crazy people, but keep in mind that he wasn't committing terrorism. He killed bunches of people, but it's not terrorism. I hate how alot of people label terrorism to things that clearly aren't.

And the quote your'e thinking of is from Full Metal Jacket, something along the lines of..."I get meet exciting and exotic people, and kill them!"

__________________
Posts: 4,665 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
Return to Top  Pages (2): [1] 2 »

newthread reply Serious Discussion
prev.gif Previous Thread | Next Thread next.gif
Linear Hybrid Threaded

printer.gif Show Printable Version
sendtofriend.gif Email this Page
Rate this Thread:

Forum Jump:

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On

All times are GMT -5 hours. The time now is 11:41 PM.

ForumsX > General Discussion > Serious Discussion > Violence in American And Our PostModern Way of Life

< Contact Us - http://www.forumsx.net - Archive >
Return to Top

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.0 Beta 7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.