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The African Union should demand US$67 billion per year from the global community  
folder icon   08-28-2009, 09:29 PM
The African Union should demand US$67 billion per year from the global community Post #1
Black~Enthusiasm

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Africa: Continent Puts Price On Climate Adaptation Aid

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Addis Ababa — African ministers agreed this week to recommend that the African Union should demand US$67 billion per year from the global community in compensation for the effects of climate change.

The annual sum would be spent on establishing science-guided projects to help with adaptation and mitigation.

The figure was agreed at a meeting of the Conference of Africa Heads of States and Government on Climate Change in Addis Ababa (24 August). However, only deputy ministers attended the meeting, and it is hoped that the declaration will be endorsed by African heads of state next week in Tripoli, Libya.

The demand would then be presented at international climate talks in Copenhagen later in the year.

The figure of US$67 billion a year has been debated for some time, including at African Union (AU) summits in February and July of this year, gaining prominence at the Nairobi, Kenya, meeting of African ministers of environment earlier this year. The payments would need to be achieved by 2020, the Addis Ababa meeting agreed.

At the meeting some delegates called for the sum to be nearer US$200 billion a year, representing Africa's share of the four per cent of global GDP which, it is argued, should be spent on adaptation and mitigation worldwide.

The conference is a group of eight countries that have been mandated to negotiate on behalf of Africa at future climate talks. It comprises Algeria, the Congo, Ethiopia, Kenya, Mauritius, Mozambique, Nigeria, Uganda, the chairpersons of the AU, the AU Commission and the African ministerial conference on the environment, along with technical negotiators from around Africa.

The AU said the meeting sought to translate a "technical voice" into "political commitment" in climate-change negotiations.

Delegates said they would like to see the money go towards establishing centres of excellence on climate change. The AU will push for compensation through technology transfer and capacity-building, rather than cash.

The AU's director of rural economy and agriculture, Abebe Haile Gabriel, said the continent was lagging behind in terms of scientific data collection, the development of mitigation projects and the training of scientists.

"The continent's position is not that of demanding cash tokens but massive investment in ways to help the countries use technologies," he said.

The AU wants individual countries to use the money to carry out national plans of action, which mostly consist of finding ways to use efficient technologies in the energy, agriculture and water management sectors, as well as obtaining intellectual property rights for these technologies.

Judy Beaumont, the South African representative at the meeting, said that the amount required for adaptation programmes globally is more than US$400 billion and that at least half of this should go to projects in Africa.

She added that Africa needs low-carbon technologies, energy-efficiency projects and renewable-energy technologies, which have previously remained elusive because of a lack of affordable financing and difficulty in obtaining intellectual property rights.

"This is not about begging for cash but the urge for a common but differentiated responsibility,"added Beaumont. "Most developed countries took a dirty route to development, and Africa cannot take the same route."

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folder icon   08-29-2009, 05:13 AM
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In COMPENSATION? Are they blaming us for climate change? Nobody even knows if it's manmade! Climate changes happened all the time before humans even appeared!

I mean I know they need aid and stuff and new better technologies, but they really need to watch their wording.

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folder icon   08-30-2009, 03:37 AM
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Actually after all the shit like colonialism, dumping toxic waste to African waters, invoking civil wars in Nigeria for oil intrests and all the corporate corruption destabilising African governance I think they have all the rights to demand compensations. Seriously, open your eyes man, a great deal of western welfare comes from unjust exploitation of an entire continent.

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folder icon   08-30-2009, 06:56 AM
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"Actually after all the shit like colonialism, dumping toxic waste to African waters, invoking civil wars in Nigeria for oil intrests and all the corporate corruption destabilising African governance I think they have all the rights to demand compensations. Seriously, open your eyes man, a great deal of western welfare comes from unjust exploitation of an entire continent."

Colonialism is the worst offense, but it also occured hundreds of years ago. There are countless offenses committed all across the globe that from the 18th to 20th century. The US vs its indian population. Britain vs China. Britain vs India. These are crimes that can't be undone, and the best we can do now is work more closely with these nations to help each other. I'd suggest reparations only in specific situations, and under certain conditions. Otherwise, it's just getting in the way of smarter, more focused aid.

As for the corporate corruption... I'd love to see these companies put on trial in their native countries AND in Africa, where and when crimes are committed. But, the reason why they're not is because they've got the govt's in their pocket - the same ones that now want compensation! if a government has pollution and doesn't effectively monitor or police it, that's its own fault! Every government has an obligation to act responsibly, and if they don't their people should blame them first and foremost, not the US and Europe.

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folder icon   09-02-2009, 04:22 PM
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To be fair though, the chinese had it coming.

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folder icon   09-03-2009, 12:38 AM
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And that is what the Chinese will say about Americans when they rule the world... ^_^

Any way back to the topic, I do agree with so and so about there being accountability of governments and companies. But I also believe that what effects an African farmer (No matter if he is white, green, yellow, brown, black, or blue) effects us all. We all too often say that it is not our problem because it is a different country, different peoples, different government, and forget that humanity only has one home.

Life, all life is something to be looked after and marvel at. From the smallest thing in some lab under some electron microscope some where, to the biggest of the great blue whales.

If it is going to cost 100 billion to guide countries, any of them, to 'green' solutions it is money that we should be more then willing to spend, as humanity. I'll more then willingly give what I can if I know that it is going to make a difference. The problem is corruption and corporate interests, the problem is greed. There will always be the rich and the poor, but there is no fucking need to keep people in slums just so I can have a cup of joe in the morning. The problem is distribution of wealth, globe and local. Even within the "great" United States of America.

People are willing to work, but there is no reason a single parent should have to work two jobs and 16 hours a day just to support their two children...

The problem is our culture of consumption.
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folder icon   09-03-2009, 11:52 PM
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You know, I'd help them if it helped me at all. Maybe if they stopped chucking spears a few centuries ago they wouldn't be in this mess.

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folder icon   09-06-2009, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
Colonialism is the worst offense, but it also occured hundreds of years ago.


Actually, it started hundreds of years ago, but it didn't end that long ago. Last of the major countries freed from colonial rule of Britain and France happened around the period of WW2.

Africa is the most exploited continent in the world, hands down, but suing the world for climate changes, out of all the injustices they can cry and hail for... meh... kind of farfetched.

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folder icon   09-06-2009, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by One of the many
Actually after all the shit like colonialism, dumping toxic waste to African waters, invoking civil wars in Nigeria for oil intrests and all the corporate corruption destabilising African governance I think they have all the rights to demand compensations. Seriously, open your eyes man, a great deal of western welfare comes from unjust exploitation of an entire continent.

Then they should demand it for those things, but they're not. They're demanding it for climate change, which is bullshit. End of story.

Besides, unless you're using a computer you bought second hand and therefore had no impact on it's rate of production, you have no right to get on your high horse about exploitation because you're just as bad as the rest of us.

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folder icon   09-07-2009, 11:19 PM
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What they are saying is that they need money and support to develop their economies in a 'green' way. They are not demanding money for damages done, they are saying that if we want them to take a different route to economic stability from the norm, which is what china and india are currently doing and involves lots of pollution, then they are going to need more investment and help from richer countries. Ie the west.

I feel like the only one who read the fucking post with a gain of salt and then looked around for more information my self. You guys suck, I remember when everyone would at lest try to inform themselves before posting here... You would think that the five or six of us left could have a semi decent conversation.

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folder icon   09-08-2009, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy the Saint
What they are saying is that they need money and support to develop their economies in a 'green' way. They are not demanding money for damages done, they are saying that if we want them to take a different route to economic stability from the norm, which is what china and india are currently doing and involves lots of pollution, then they are going to need more investment and help from richer countries. Ie the west.

I feel like the only one who read the fucking post with a gain of salt and then looked around for more information my self. You guys suck, I remember when everyone would at lest try to inform themselves before posting here... You would think that the five or six of us left could have a semi decent conversation.


This is based on the premiss that they have a shot at industrialisation and economical stability.

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folder icon   09-08-2009, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
This is based on the premiss that they have a shot at industrialisation and economical stability.

Sammy, you're right. Doesn't mean you don't suck as well, but it doesn't make you wrong. Didn't read the post. I responded to all the other posts other than the first.

To achieve industrial stability I think they first need to achieve some sort of governmental stability. I mean, people would want to invest in building factories there to attain cheap labour force, but why would someone put money in a country that faces constant revolutions and genocide. In countries of the East, at least the leadership holds some to total grasp over the population, making it a more reasonable and safe for entrepenuers to invest and industrialise a country. Seeing how nobody gives a fuck about what's going on in Africa other than gumanitarian organizations, and pretty much people exploit the land for the resources rather than the work force. I hope that the EU will support a green Africa, I doubt that in these times they'll invest 67 Billion in something risky.

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folder icon   09-08-2009, 05:09 PM
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I'm not so sure if "demand" would be the right way to place what they're asking for. Africa doesn't have the technology to produce the green technologies we're demanding they implement in the climate change accords that we sign. Asking for 67 billion a year to implement green technologies is a drop in a bucket for us, and the fact of the matter is that it would be part of our global effort to combat climate change.

It's rather pointless for us, to do the reverse, whine and bitch about Africa for all the "wrongs" they've done us, demand that they turn green and implement highly expensive and advanced machines/factories/powerplants and yet turn our shoulder and say, no we won't make it available to you. If we want to have more green technology in the world, we have to invest the money.

Perhaps, the method of investing 67 billion dollars, as suggested by the deputy ministers at the African Union meeting is suboptimal. I would prefer a system of government shared initiatives, with contract bidding, to produce low cost green technologies. We can do joint investment ventures, helping African or even Asian countries purchase solar panels, wind power, or use nuclear to replace old coal. We can also subsidize the export of green technologies to other countries in a sort of self-serving manner to bolster our own economies through internal stimulus. There's a lot of options and I don't believe, saying screw you to Africa is one of them.

Whether or not climate change is man-made doesn't fucking matter. If you like having your society fucked up and you want to say "Not my problem not my problem" until a good chunk of your people and culture are destroyed, then go lock your door and never come out and don't bother international politics. We need to be spending money and develop ways to combat climate change regardless of its cause.

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folder icon   09-10-2009, 03:03 AM
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veegee, I know.

B~E, are you suggesting that African counties can not develop, under go industrialisation, form economical, and governmental stability? Is it something inherent in African counties or their governments? Or is it the people them selves you tiny brained wiper of other peoples' bottoms.

VeeGee - There will never be governmental stability with out economical stability. I tend to agree with Ultra Punk.

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folder icon   09-10-2009, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy the Saint

B~E, are you suggesting that African counties can not develop, under go industrialisation, form economical, and governmental stability?


Yep.
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Is it something inherent in African counties or their governments?

African "counties" [sic] and governments certainly play a part in the continuation of their misery.
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Or is it the people them selves you tiny brained wiper of other peoples' bottoms.


I wouldnt know, since I dont study people themselves, you butt ugly cocksucking mongoloid asspile of a kiwi with a funny accent.

Whats your point?

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folder icon   09-10-2009, 11:11 PM
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I unclog my nose in your general direction for my point is a simple one. So I am not surprised you with your tiny brain did not get it, you silly Canadian type.

Don't know if you knew this but Africa is a fairly big place, with many different countries. Some of which are stable and prosperous some of which are not.

To suggest that something can not happen is to suggest that it never will. A cow could not jump over the moon, in other words, a cow will never jump over the moon.

We all know that with out combating the corruption with in some governments (African or not) then much harder to stabilise the countries. But a country can be stable with corruption, just look at the US or Russia. Any country in the world really.

Your idea that it is not possible for a certain people to achieve in there way what any other people have done harks back to an opinion that use to be prevalent in cultural Anthropology which was used to back up the ideals of colonialism...

You getting my point now or do I have to spell very thing out for you. More then likely I will have to, Yes, well, that's about the type blinkard, phillistine pig-ignorance I've come to expect from you noncreative garbage filled Canadian types...

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folder icon   09-11-2009, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy the Saint

Your idea that it is not possible for a certain people to


Where did you get the idea that I was singling out the people of Africa for their misery?

Was it in the sentence where I said I was mostly blaming governments and countries? or was it in the sentence where I said that I dont study people (individuals) per se, so I wouldnt comment on them? What the Christ.

This is the second time that you're hinting at me blaming the people of Africa. What the fuck is wrong with your reading skills? Seriously? Are you posting drunk? Because out of 4 posts in this thread, 3 were gratiutous attacks on your part.

Quote:
To suggest that something can not happen is to suggest that it never will. A cow could not jump over the moon, in other words, a cow will never jump over the moon.


Woa, look at that. Your brilliant mastery of logical fallacies leaves me no choice but to reformulate my thesis in a more nuanced manner. You could've asked me to elaborate on my one-liner above, but what the heck. You got me! What flair!

So here we go: African governments and african civil societies are, as a general rule, too weak, corrupt and divided to resist predatory exploitation either by states, economical entities, transnational criminal actors or local mafias.

If, by chance, they are strong and centralized enough to resist, then they'll be too corrupt to allow genuine economical development to occure.

These general tendencies, of weakness, corruption, civil strife and internal division, are reinforcing one another. And I havent read anobody who argued that there was sufficient momentum for change within a single african society.

As such, giving them free money for green technologies is a nonsens. Its not a priority. It is based on the flase premiss of the possibility of economical development, coupled with undertones of western guilt, which I find is a, weak, tired and disgusting argument.

And look! Not a single mention of the people of Africa in my post. Just like my last two others post!

Look, its not because I'm saying that most - or too many- problems are internal to african countries that I'm blaming individual africans. Got it?

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folder icon   09-11-2009, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
Where did you get the idea that I was singling out the people of Africa for their misery?

Was it in the sentence where I said I was mostly blaming governments and countries? or was it in the sentence where I said that I dont study people (individuals) per se, so I wouldnt comment on them? What the Christ.

A country and its people are indistinguishable and inseparable. While a government may be a government for or against its people, the country can only be the sum of its people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
This is the second time that you're hinting at me blaming the people of Africa. What the fuck is wrong with your reading skills? Seriously? Are you posting drunk? Because out of 4 posts in this thread, 3 were gratiutous attacks on your part.
Right it is my reading skills that are the problem and not the fact that you are posting one liners and then complaining that I am taking a different meaning for it then the one you meant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
Woa, look at that. Your brilliant mastery of logical fallacies leaves me no choice but to reformulate my thesis in a more nuanced manner. You could've asked me to elaborate on my one-liner above, but what the heck. You got me! What flair!

So here we go: African governments and african civil societies are, as a general rule, too weak, corrupt and divided to resist predatory exploitation either by states, economical entities, transnational criminal actors or local mafias.

If, by chance, they are strong and centralized enough to resist, then they'll be too corrupt to allow genuine economical development to occure.

These general tendencies, of weakness, corruption, civil strife and internal division, are reinforcing one another. And I havent read anobody who argued that there was sufficient momentum for change within a single african society.

As such, giving them free money for green technologies is a nonsens. Its not a priority. It is based on the flase premiss of the possibility of economical development, coupled with undertones of western guilt, which I find is a, weak, tired and disgusting argument.

And look! Not a single mention of the people of Africa in my post. Just like my last two others post!

Look, its not because I'm saying that most - or too many- problems are internal to african countries that I'm blaming individual africans. Got it?

Now, you mean you can elaborate! I thought you where always more of a one liner kinda guy...

Maybe you should read more, I have read of allot of arguments for 'sufficient momentum' for change. And again Africa is a really big place there are plenty of stable governments that you have included in that sweeping statement of yours. Most of the momentum for change comes from the people of Africa, the countries. It is mostly a few governments and outside actors who are trying to hold the people back. For one reason really, it is a lot harder to rape a country when it has a stable government.

I would argue that the problems faced by most Africans come from out side influences rather then internal ones, sort like China, Japan and the West propping up corrupt governments and investing in wars. For what really isn't worth the money spent, for example another vote in the IWC...

But I would suggest you re-read Ultra Punk's last post, its not 'free money'. And why shouldn't we do more to help them? it makes more sense then spending billions on aid every year just to have a cheaper cup of joe in the morning. So tea and coffee go up 50¢ wow, big woopy...

PS. These gratuitous (haha) attacks are not because I am drunk. Rather because your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberry's, Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.

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folder icon   09-11-2009, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy the Saint
A country and its people are indistinguishable and inseparable. While a government may be a government for or against its people, the country can only be the sum of its people.

In the sentence following your assertion that people and country are indistinguishable, you made 2 sort of distinction between government and people. Honestly, whats wrong with you?

I think that your mistake is to assume that by saying that two concepts are distinct and distinguishable, they are separable. This is not true; government and State arent the same thing, but you cant separate them either if you want to analyse how they function.

Country and government arent the same thing anyway, they arent interchangeable synonymes, you cant confuse them. We usualy work with "nation", "State" or "government", as distinct concepts, its clearer that way.
Quote:

Right it is my reading skills that are the problem and not the fact that you are posting one liners and then complaining that I am taking a different meaning for it then the one you meant.

Exactly. Its a goddamn lonely sentence. Read it right.
Quote:

Maybe you should read more, I have read of allot of arguments for 'sufficient momentum' for change.

Yet provide nothing of it. Is a shame, because its the only thing you have to say say that would directly adress my argument.

Anyone else reading this thread would probably agree that you're arguing in bad faith.

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folder icon   09-28-2009, 02:04 AM
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Sorry for the late post but I have a lot of other demands on my time.

Three quick things in google search


Africa Conflict and Resolution
African IR theory
Anthropology and Africa

I come more from anthropological view, as that was my degree, needless to say I did Conflict and Resolution and IR theory. How about you read some about Africa and then get back to me.

Oh and yeah I am arguing on bad faith when you have never offered anything in support of your own view either. Well done there bub. Anyone reading this thread would most likely think of Darkwolf's sig, I know I do.

Oh and because I am pressed for time, and cant be bothered thinking, once again... Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberry's, Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time.

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folder icon   09-29-2009, 03:54 PM
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I already explained my reasoning and how my arguments add up. I'll will feel like I need to back it up with facts when you will bother explaining whats wrong with my reasoning in the first place. All you did was to say "well, I've read somewhere that you were wrong", without showing anything for it. And just now you give me some links to vast academic fields concerning Africa, without explaining how it relates to my arguments, or yours, as if it was a proper challenge to my reasoning.

You expect me to read about it all, as if the burden of proof for your own argument rested on my shoulders. This is what I mean by arguing in bad faith. You suck.

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