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folder icon   03-06-2008, 07:11 PM
US heading for a moral regression? Post #1
Urin_BloodfaceII

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http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2.../525/811/420237

I say: "Pardon my good Sir ... come again?"

The same with the patriot act.

I am like ... come again ... and uber woot????

Republicans giving the thumb up for torture and being dicks around the world

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folder icon   03-06-2008, 10:10 PM
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This amuses me immensly.

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folder icon   03-06-2008, 10:50 PM
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Doesn't anyone want to ask about the christian view of marriage? I mean, there's a fair number of terms in there just loaded with meaning that aren't fully explained in that statement.

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 06:17 AM
Post #4
Urin_BloodfaceII

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Timothy 2:11-15 is a nice Christian viewpoint.

"11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Genesis 3:16

"To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."



Maybe he should try to invoke Hispanic slavery while hes at it.

Exodus 21:20-21.
"20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."


Leviticus 25:44-46
" 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 07:17 AM
Post #5
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you noticed?

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 07:21 AM
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Urin is an example of those atheists who preach tolerance and then proceed to be intolerant of everyone who doesn't do that exact same thing.

Of course, who am I to complain? Christians are stupid and hypocrisy is my middle name. Andrew Hypocrisy de Weerd. Yes.

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 08:16 AM
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Urin_BloodfaceII

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I have noticed a while, but this was a new low.

I'm very intolerant. I'm intolerant to most people. Even if I agree with someones opinion, I can be intolerant of them. Cuse I'm intolerant of sucky arguments. If someone agrees with me for the wrong reasons, I will be intolerant of them. But I am tolerant of a lot of people, among them Christians, they are of course liberal. If they have good arguments and realize where the weak spots in their worldview are, and if the weak spots are crucial they don't make the actions of their opinions that follow that weak point affect other people than themselves.

I'm tolerant of different opinions with decent arguments. I am intolerant of rubbish!

Being intolerant is also very fun.

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 12:03 PM
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Black~Enthusiasm

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urin_BloodfaceII
Timothy 2:11-15 is a nice Christian viewpoint.

"11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Genesis 3:16

"To the woman he said,
"I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you."



Maybe he should try to invoke Hispanic slavery while hes at it.

Exodus 21:20-21.
"20 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, 21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."


Leviticus 25:44-46
" 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.



St-Timoty was just that, a saint. You might want to follow is exemple, but this is all he's got, an exemple to give. St-Timoty has no real autority. Also, he wasnt a saint because of is views on marital relationship, so a devout christian would have no real reason to follow his advice.

About Genesis, this is just a curse God gave to Eve as they left Eden. It is no more christian to accept this marital submission than it is christian to endure great pain during pregnancy. Its a curse, not a duty.

As for Exodus and Leviticus, at least quote books from the Bible when you want to try and bash christianity. Those are Old Testament and from the Torah.

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 02:20 PM
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Urin_BloodfaceII

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I'm not bashing Christianity as a whole. Just biblical "literalism" and the very " the bible is never wrong"-type of world view . Tho I do find "cherry picking" of the bible rather amusing. How all different liberal Christians choose different books of the NT to follow except for the stories from the apostles about Jesus. And then whats left? Something that can never in this life be validated and some moral that was there around 500- BC. Socrates and Buddha.

I'm also bashing what I think look like a dangerous development.

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 02:51 PM
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Urin_BloodfaceII

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When the oil rancher from Texas says that the world is 6000-8000 years old since that what genesis says, and two seconds later says the world is several million since thats what needed for his oil to be made. Fuck no! I'm not a "pussy liberal" who can accept that. I take pride in arguing against flawed logic. Its a kind of social-liberal fucking gospel for do not come here and say the fuckturds like Huckabee's ignorant deranged opinions does not hurt anyone, because they do. And hes a damned presidential candidate for crying out loud!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=na4L...feature=related

Hes taking the first of genesis literary! Why just that and not the other parts of the OT count? And if genesis1 is not literal wth then with original sin? I could roar with laughter was it not so immensely tragic!

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
St-Timoty was just that, a saint. You might want to follow is exemple, but this is all he's got, an exemple to give. St-Timoty has no real autority. Also, he wasnt a saint because of is views on marital relationship, so a devout christian would have no real reason to follow his advice.

About Genesis, this is just a curse God gave to Eve as they left Eden. It is no more christian to accept this marital submission than it is christian to endure great pain during pregnancy. Its a curse, not a duty.

As for Exodus and Leviticus, at least quote books from the Bible when you want to try and bash christianity. Those are Old Testament and from the Torah.


please don't try to justify the bible.... it only makes you look stupid.

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 04:50 PM
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Yeah you're right. I might as well attack the bible with fallacies and look cool instead!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urin_BloodfaceII
I'm not bashing Christianity as a whole. Just biblical "literalism" and the very " the bible is never wrong"-type of world view .

Your bashing biblical literalism by trying to prove that the christian bible literaly contain barbaric elements? At least make a good case for it.

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
Yeah you're right. I might as well attack the bible with fallacies and look cool instead!

Or you could point out all the fallacies and conflicting viewpoints within christianity and the bible. Nah.... that's overplayed.

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 04:54 PM
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Why would I do that?

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 04:55 PM
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folder icon   03-07-2008, 05:02 PM
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I cant!

D:

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
Yeah you're right. I might as well attack the bible with fallacies and look cool instead!



Your bashing biblical literalism by trying to prove that the christian bible literaly contain barbaric elements? At least make a good case for it.



Does not bible literalism contain barbaric elements? Have I not just shown that? I might add Paul as well in both the Corinth's and the romans for being anti woman liberation. Whats interesting is that it is those nasty OT texts that say bad things about homosexuals and Paul!

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 06:08 PM
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But the Old Testament isnt a part of Christianity. The elelments you brought up, about Genesis and St-Timoty, werent valide, in my eyes, for the reasons I gave.

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 06:46 PM
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How do you decide what counts and not? Especially considering stuff like original sin? Adam and Eve is just Jewish fairytale but original sin is real? And if original sin isn't real Jesus is losing a lot of his reason for being here in the first place. And The OT is wrong , but the prophesies are right?

1 Cor 6:9-11
- 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom 1:27
-7In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

1. Cor 11:7-9
- 7A man ought not to cover his head,[b] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

1. Cor.14:34-35
34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

This is Paul. After Jesus .In he NT.

Tho I kinda agree with you if I were a Christian, many neocons and fundies do not, and some of them open up for and/or want a (IMO) moral regression and I am honestly so very sad and I feel so helpless. And I am slowly losing hope in that people can change by arguments alone which just devastates me.

Good night, and let us all hope/pray/work for peace.

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folder icon   03-07-2008, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
How do you decide what counts and not? Especially considering stuff like original sin?

I separate christian doctrine in two categories; what the Christ said, and what other men said before or after him. What Christ is reported to have said is something a christian should follow literaly. What ordinary individuals said about Christianity, like St-Paul, is to be taken with a grain of salt, because St-Paul, just like you, never met Christ personaly, and as such, they hold no more moral autority than you or I do. They merely tried to combine Christianity and their social norms together (this explain St-Paul's views on women and slavery), and as such, what they said need to be taken within their historical context. Which means that if your social context contradict what St-Paul said, then you could say that his doctrine is irrelevant.

Like Jesus said on Jn 5:41, "I do not receive glory from men". What we do and say in his name, after him, isnt obligatory relevant to your own personal christian faith, assuming if you have one. Only the word of Christ is supposed to be universal and intemporal, and only his word shoud be used to to reorganize your life. What other saints and scholars have said isnt obligatory unless you agree with them. Their doctrine is optional and subordonated to the word of Christ.

So unless you directly quote Jesus, I'll always be able to use my own personal judgement and my socio-historical context to judge of the validity of christian doctrine, because I dont give absolute moral autority to other saints, who are nothing but fellow men, no greater than me.

But thats just my personal view. I havent been in a church since I was 12, and I dont have faith. Maybe brydon could enlighten us.

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folder icon   03-08-2008, 05:56 AM
Post #21
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Its a decent Christian view in my opinion. But it does have some problems IMO and I hope you do not mind me pointing them out. First of all Jesus refers to the OT all the time so they do count as the canon. Like the following:

Mark 7
21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 "thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness.
23 "All these evil things come from within and defile a man."

He must be referring to genesis. And is your view not so liberal that your actions are not that influenced by Christianity and might as well be humanistic?

Matthew 19
3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for just any reason?"
4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,
5 "and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
6 "So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
7 They said to Him, "Why then did MOSES command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?"
8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

Matthew 5
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery."
28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart..

Matthew 5
31 Furthermore it has been said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.
32 "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except FORNICATION causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

Mark 10
10 In the house His disciples also asked Him again about the same matter.
11 So He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her.
12 "And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

Luke 16
18 "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery.

So I am humbly asking ... this is Jesus talking and why do not the Christians focus on THIS within their own community and do not focus on things like homosexuality, abortion, stem cell research, laws based on the bible and getting ID into schools where there is a lot of people that do not believe in it at all! People can believe that "Rocks are gods ...",( but I will discuss and try to convince them otherwise) "... as long as they do not throw them at me!"

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folder icon   03-08-2008, 12:03 PM
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Here's what Jesus think of the Old Testament. The all caps is how it is in the Bible, I mean no emphasis to that part.


"For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. For finding fault with them, He says,

"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."

When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." (Hebrews 8:7-13)

So I think its pretty clear that by making a new covenant and making the old one obsolete, this shows that theres a clear demarcation between christianity and the Old Testament.

About Mark 7, it indicate that men are capabale of sin by themselves, that they're responsible for it personaly. While its very similar to the original sin, its not a direct and explicite reference to it.

Matthew 19 - Jesus is distancing himself from the laws of the old covenant. "8 He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.

As for the rest, He's merely defending a sacro-saint view of marriage, as something that can't be broken, since it was sanctified by God. While this is at odd with our free jerking lifestyle, at least it doesnt imply any sort of divinely sanctioned gender inequality, like you would have liked us to believe in your above posts.

Quote:
So I am humbly asking ... this is Jesus talking and why do not the Christians focus on THIS within their own community

What on Earth makes you think that christians dont focus on this within their own communities? I'm pretty confident they do.

And in my opinion, they focus on the rest (gender inequality, homosexuality) because they're idiots who cherrypick passages in the bible to validate and justify a certain form of bigotry that they had prior to being christians.

I'd really like you to continue this. And where's brydon?

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folder icon   03-08-2008, 12:40 PM
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the old testament is definately part of the bible. every bible has old and new together.

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folder icon   03-08-2008, 12:56 PM
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Havent said its not a part of it. I'm saying it doesnt need to be followed by christians.

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folder icon   03-08-2008, 07:49 PM
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I find it interesting that since ancient times and up until recenty that in Southeast Asia women were in charge of trade and business in the family, yet in that region today women are pushed aside so, to the point where female babies sometimes are killed because they supposedly don't bring value to the family.


The Huckster would be a good statesman, but his stances aren't cohesive with the American public. I'm glad he had a good run, it's healthy for the political process, but he could never be president.

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folder icon   03-09-2008, 10:19 AM
Post #26
Urin_BloodfaceII

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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008...in3919474.shtml

Oooh my!


It would off course be you interpretation and your saying that the stuff written by anyone except John, Matt and Luke isn't valid either. And only the things that Jesus said in them since they could write things themselves. Off course has to be viewed like there can be errors in the writing since the oldest bibles we got are like from around 100AD. And they do disagree on some things like " How many angels were there in Jesus tomb". And you have to look at it through the culture of the time so the moral that does not apply to our cultures liberal morals does not really count. See what I'm saying?

The problem with just looking at Jesus is that he is not saying anything at all about this world that can be falsified, what he is saying is morals and stories that can be interpreted like horoscopes and he is talking about the afterlife. And what is he then?In a moral philosophy sense a philosopher like Buddha (depends on how you define religion.) and Socrates with a metaphysical afterlife philosophy which is very appealing. God becomes the "god of the gaps".

Another question arises is that why didn't Jesus say anything like :" Oooh you got the creation of the earth, the tower of babel and the drowning of the world all wrong because it was a literary tradition written down after years of having them as oral stories."

Whats healthy by having Huckky in the political proses?



Do not totally agree, but oooh well ...


This is the scenario I fear. =D McCain gets Huckabee as vise president and gets the value voters. Then The US shows how bigoted they are and vote for McCain. Then McCain is shot/killed/scandal and you have a religious nut as a president. He will then carpet a-bomb the world to get Armageddon so Jesus can return.

Like this :

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folder icon   03-09-2008, 01:24 PM
Post #27
Black~Enthusiasm

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urin_BloodfaceII


The problem with just looking at Jesus is that he is not saying anything at all about this world that can be falsified


Thats why christian morality is a religious theory and not a scientific one. Whats the problem with that? Also, you can still use your own judgement to determine the worth of this moral philosophy. You're free to do so.

As for the rest, I'm not sure what you're getting at. The Christ was clear that there's a departure from the stories from the Old Tertament, I dont now what more you need. MAybe he should have petrol-bombed a few synagogues to make his point?

And whats with the article on torture? Its got nothing to do with christianity.

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folder icon   03-09-2008, 02:23 PM
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Urin_BloodfaceII

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Sorry for not being precise and explaining as much as I should. I am tired from writing a paper. The link there was about the headline of this topic. "US heading for a moral regression?".

The problem is that God/Jesus becomes the "God of the gaps" referring to that whenever there is a gap in ones theory(especially scientific theory) you put in God. Like the Norsemen did with Lightning and Thor. The brightest people since ancient times has used it. Even Newton, Copernicus and other thinkers (especially in physics and astronomy.) until like the late 1800s. People do it still, but in scientific/philosophical communities its a sign that you have given up and to put him in a paper is scientific/philosophical suicide.

From what I can understand from many modern liberal Christians that tries to only focus on Jesus is that it is a moral/afterlife "god of the gaps" to justify their morale and to comfort them while awaiting the afterlife. And even tho Jesus was a great moral philosopher other people were just as good before him and there are both clearer and more altruistic persons (if Jesus isn't the son of God) that has come after Jesus among them, Spinoza and one could argue that both Mill and other modern liberals are more altruistic and accepting. Where as Jesus afterlife philosophy limits that earthly altruistic and tolerant view.

Why not look at Jesus as a great person (if he existed) and an amazing moral philosopher (which he was.) and accept that we do not know whats coming after we have died and use logic after you have chosen axioms (i.e. answers to. All living things are worth the same? Do we have free will? What is good?) And not use moral philosophy written over 2000 years ago as arguments for legislations and laws today.A lot of the texts I have pointed out are as you say ...

"" And in my opinion, they focus on the rest (gender inequality, homosexuality) because they're idiots who cherrypick passages in the bible to validate and justify a certain form of bigotry that they had prior to being christians.""

... And I do agree. But how do you know your not doing the same. And the problem is how does one value the different interpretations on Christianity and how should one value what people think are Christian values against other values when they are made on vague interpretations and not scientific reports, experience and debate. You got a separation of Church and state for just that reason. After 700 years of bloodshed between different religious groups the enlightenment philosophers said "fuck it!" and tried to find a moral not based on religious interpretation and started working for woman rights in the early 1800, abolition of slavery and abolishment of torture. It seems the US is getting a regression. So that is why I am so upset, sad and frustrated.

Some nationalism. ( Got some factual errors tho)

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folder icon   03-09-2008, 06:52 PM
Post #29
Black~Enthusiasm

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urin_BloodfaceII


From what I can understand from many modern liberal Christians that tries to only focus on Jesus is that it is a moral/afterlife "god of the gaps" to justify their morale and to comfort them while awaiting the afterlife.


Whats wrong with that?
Quote:

And even tho Jesus was a great moral philosopher other people were just as good before him and there are both clearer and more altruistic persons (if Jesus isn't the son of God) that has come after Jesus among them, Spinoza and one could argue that both Mill and other modern liberals are more altruistic and accepting. Where as Jesus afterlife philosophy limits that earthly altruistic and tolerant view.

How are those more more altruistic, I'd want to know.

Quote:

Why not look at Jesus as a great person (if he existed) and an amazing moral philosopher (which he was.) and accept that we do not know whats coming after we have died and use logic after you have chosen axioms (i.e. answers to. All living things are worth the same? Do we have free will? What is good?)

Whats wrong with having faith in the divine nature of Jesus?
Quote:

And not use moral philosophy written over 2000 years ago as arguments for legislations and laws today.A lot of the texts I have pointed out are as you say

Whenever people use christian morality to justify social policies, they get trown eggs at them. They get automaticaly excluded, they lose their credibility. I dont know what you're refering too when you say that religion is creeping into the political sphere. It happnes, yes, but it never come close to succeed.

Unless its muslims who want to silent a whole fucking society for publishing caricatures. But hey, I'd like to see you criticize that.
Quote:

And I do agree. But how do you know your not doing the same.

I already explained above why I chose certain passages of the bible before some others. My method isnt cherrypicking.
Quote:

And the problem is how does one value the different interpretations on Christianity and how should one value what people think are Christian values against other values when they are made on vague interpretations and not scientific reports, experience and debate.

If a biblical interpretation isnt debated, it stands no chance of being accepted by anybody, unless you're forced to do so under the threat of violence. Either theres a debate about it, or it wont be accepted.
Quote:

You got a separation of Church and state for just that reason. After 700 years of bloodshed between different religious groups the enlightenment philosophers said "fuck it!" and tried to find a moral not based on religious interpretation and started working for woman rights in the early 1800, abolition of slavery and abolishment of torture. It seems the US is getting a regression. So that is why I am so upset, sad and frustrated.


The american christian lobby is better organized than it was before, and this is reflected in the political process. Is this worrying? No. It isnt because the Bible Belt is declining from its peak during the first Bush administration.

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folder icon   03-09-2008, 08:48 PM
Post #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
Whats wrong with that?
To be honest: not much. And I am just picky and pointing out the weak spots.1. Only that holding a believe only because it feels good/"sounds nice" isn't the best reason for holding it if something else seems just as likely. A nice example is "free will"(determinism/indetermenism). We do not know if we got free will or not and the jury is still out. Nearly everyone believes in free will. I am agnostic to it.Very few believe that we do not have free will. There could be several reasons for that, but I believe the biggest reason is because it doesn't seem good and does not "sound nice". 2. Because it might stop them from getting their morals from other places which might be better.3. Some say they tend to surgically remove the Jesus part from all the rest of the OT (old testament) and NT (new testament) and do not look at the wholeness of the bible and then Jesus loses a lot of his reason for being there in the first place since without OT some would say Jesus loses a lot of his authority.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
How are those more more altruistic, I'd want to know.

I must admit that altruistic was a very wrong word to use. It was badly formulated and the conclusion would be far-fetched. I will sit in the shame corner now for 2 min. But the thing is that i.e. Spinoza was stabbed and was banished from his jewish community and Rabbies( jewish priests sp?) put out a death warrant and cursed him. He forgave everyone and continued to write stuff that put him in danger writing things similar to Voiltares " I do not agree with you, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it." He kinda accepted everyone while Jesus probably( no one knows) doesn't let everyone into heaven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
Whats wrong with having faith in the divine nature of Jesus?

Nothing really, tho I do not see a good empirical argument for why one should have faith. And it seems to be that one isn't always that influenced by argument if the faith can be interpreted to say otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
Whenever people use christian morality to justify social policies, they get trown eggs at them. They get automaticaly excluded, they lose their credibility. I dont know what you're refering too when you say that religion is creeping into the political sphere. It happnes, yes, but it never come close to succeed.

Extreme attitude towards anti-gay marriage laws, stem-cell research,ID in schools. If religion isn't creeping into politics , then why is it political suicide to be an atheist politician? Why was 3 of the republican presidential candidates pro-ID. Why did G.W.Bush as I have heard used religious rhetoric and excuses for going to war?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
Unless its muslims who want to silent a whole fucking society for publishing caricatures. But hey, I'd like to see you criticize that.

I have. But very politely and goodie-two-shoes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
I already explained above why I chose certain passages of the bible before some others. My method isnt cherrypicking.

Isn't that what all the people who you claim are cherry picking are saying too? Most of them are more sophisticated than taking a verse here and there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
If a biblical interpretation isnt debated, it stands no chance of being accepted by anybody, unless you're forced to do so under the threat of violence. Either theres a debate about it, or it wont be accepted.

The american christian lobby is better organized than it was before, and this is reflected in the political process. Is this worrying? No. It isnt because the Bible Belt is declining from its peak during the first Bush administration.


Sorry for being vague, but the point was that everyone has different opinions of the bible and you get catholic, orthodox, protestant+++++ over a wide specter. You can usually never get them to join a cause with argument except through biblical arguments, but they often have so much to do with the rest so it happens rarely.

Discussions go like this.
Peter:" I belive in X because of argument A, B and C"
Bob : " I do not belive so because Henry said its wrong"
Peter: " Who is Henry?"
Bob: " He is my friend he is never wrong?"

That is how it feels like to discuss with a conservative Christians only they use the bible. Its extremely hard to change their minds with arguments. I used about two years to convince my conservative friend that evolution is a whole lot more probable than ID.

I hope your right. But it is still worrying since they still have a lot to say.

This has been great so far. Thanks for discussing. I need to go to bed again. *hug* Lets all pray/hope/work for peace on earth.

PS: I'm not an atheist. I am an agnostic (or weak atheist) who think that the God of Abraham, Odin and Zeus etc existence is very unlikely and do not consider his in my life.

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folder icon   03-10-2008, 07:46 AM
Post #31
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To understand the wife-submission issue, I think its necessary to understand the christian view of marriage:

The wife submits to the husband, who in turn is submitted to Christ.
The wife's body belongs to the husband.
The husband's body belongs to the wife.
Neither may deny or damage the other.

Incidentally, did you know that 60% of women without a strong faith have never experienced an orgasm? Did you know that 89% of christian women have, frequently, truly enjoy sex and don't see it as a "duty", "chore" or some sort of trade-off?

my fiance asked me to read this nifty book about "The Act of Marriage". I thought it was gonna be all doom and gloom till I started reading it. Its like... a guide to having copious amounts of good christian lovin' behind locked doors. Recommend it to all ya'll.

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folder icon   03-10-2008, 08:03 AM
Post #32
Urin_BloodfaceII

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Got a passage on the woman view from bible? Preferably from Jesus?

And what are you Bryndon? And if your a conservative, what do you think of what might be considered a liberal Christian like BE? Or why are not you a liberal or conservative Christian

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryndon


Incidentally, did you know that 60% of women without a strong faith have never experienced an orgasm? Did you know that 89% of christian women have, frequently, truly enjoy sex and don't see it as a "duty", "chore" or some sort of trade-off?



Hehehe ... nice! Where did you get that? It does not matter if you do not find it, I just want to show it to some friends.



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folder icon   03-10-2008, 01:23 PM
Post #33
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Well using God to fill in the gaps in science isn't a problem so long as its a gap. The issues arise when science eventually fills in the gap but religious organizations refuse to accept it. In America's case, it is currently intelligent design vs evolution. Evolution has explained biological diversity and many other concepts of biology, like the biology version of the Theory of Everything. Unfortunately, large religious organizations in America wish to still believe in the God of the gap in science and now it's causing problems in the education system.

In terms of the whole marriage thing, I do not believe it is a general christian belief for the wife to be inferior to the husband. Much like in islam where it is not a general belief that women are inferior... much like how in chinese culture women are not necessarily inferior (a major aspect of the particular subculture i happen to be a part of believes the perfect family has equal number of male and female children, specifically in today's world that is 1 son, 1 daughter since having a lot of children is economically problematic). B~E's argument is simply to invalidate large portions of christian holy scripture to suit your modern liberal needs. Now, believing in God and understanding science are not mutually exclusive, but if one can pick and choose how christian doctrine works (how protestant of you) then really you can't argue about christianity so far as it allows the production of extremists.

The general problem in society isn't religion, it's organized religious institution adhering to extreme doctrines. Islam doesn't tell people to become suicide bombers. The most powerful islamic societies in our world have no terrorist organizations. Christianity doesn't specifically tell people to disbelieve in evolution... most biologists in the west are christian. Instead, what we have are armed jesus camps in america preparing for the eventual rapture, most likely made by human hand after a disastrous nuclear war. We have organizations in afghanistan who after decades of war decided that islam will help them win the fight.

It's healthy for huckabee to run for president, its not a good sign when he can be the runner up. He is what i call an extremist. Simply because christian extremists can use state armies to coordinate their violence doesn't imply that they're, for no reason other than being more organized and powerful in employing violence, better tahn terrorists.

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folder icon   03-10-2008, 09:39 PM
Post #34
Bryndon

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Quote:
Hehehe ... nice! Where did you get that? It does not matter if you do not find it, I just want to show it to some friends.

I'm reading "The Act of Marriage" by Tim and Beverley LaHaye. I'd check out a christian bookstore or some such for it.

Note: If you read this and then use it in your lovemaking, you're obliged to become Christian.

Quote:
And what are you Bryndon? And if your a conservative, what do you think of what might be considered a liberal Christian like BE? Or why are not you a liberal or conservative Christian

I'm not quite sure of my politico-religious stance. I believe the church has a moral obligation to help the poor and sick, but I also believe the church has a moral obligation to hold the world accountable for unethical actions. I also believe that no-one without a doctorate in the subject should quote the bible in religious dicussions given the complexity of the text.
Quote:
Got a passage on the woman view from bible? Preferably from Jesus?

I went and found a website called Preaching Today and looked up bible passages referring to marriage. There's quite a few so I'm doing about two, but you can explore more of them if you like. If you sign up, you'd probably get preaching advice, which would consist of how pastors teach this information in churches.
Quote:
Genesis 2:24-25
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

25 The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

The bible states from the outset that marriage is about two people functioning as one unit. This requires teamwork and the support of both parties. Also, verse 25 reminds us that there is no shame in married life.
Quote:
Proverbs 18:22
22 He who finds a wife finds what is good
and receives favor from the LORD.

The institution of marriage is a blessing from God. It is not slavery, it is not misogynist, nor is it anti-feminist. It is a positive force.

Jesus' teaching on the subject is in Mark Ch 10, but its primarily concerned with divorce. Mosaic law states that a man may divorce his wife by simply writing up a certificate and sending her on her way. Jesus said that this law was written because they had hard hearts, and that it was no longer valid.

This link : http://www.tagnet.org/adventist.fm/articles/women.htm is based on the letters from St Paul*, who is also famous for supporting strange and crazy things like living a life of singledom and celibacy. The gist of it is like I've prevously stated - women submit to their husbands, the husbands submit to Christ, and all three love all three.


*St Paul is the famous preacher who began life as Saul, the killer of Christians, was converted, and spent the rest of his life preaching the good news. He spent a great deal of time being arrested by Romans and held in prison. While there, he wrote pretty much all of the New Testament. The gospels, the acts of the apostles and revelations aren't him, all the letters are historical records of advice he gave to churches he established during his preaching. I'm not sure if that's common knowledge, but... I wanted to write a footnote

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folder icon   03-11-2008, 02:54 AM
Post #35
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Your Catholic right?

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