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Natural rights  
folder icon   07-11-2003, 02:08 AM
Natural rights Post #1
Friend of Fidel

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What are they and from where did they originate?

1) Natural rights are expressions of shared, universal desires.
1a) Not wanting to be enslaved and murdered are universal desires.

2) Natural rights are moral claims of ownership beginning with oneself and his labor, but moral claims consistent with universal desires.
2a) If you "own" yourself, then you own your labor.

3) Natural rights are limited to human interaction, not interactions with other life forms.
3a) If a lion eats you, we don't say the lion has deprived you of your natural right to life.

4) They come from existence, i.e., by virtue of your existence, you have natural rights given by that which created the universe and life. In other words, the only evidence we have of this creator's "will" or "design" is what we can see in nature, and since we don't see chains around us leading to those self-appointed "leaders" of our destiny, they have no moral claim to make our decisions about how we live.

If you see a flaw, please post it so I can fine tune my philosophy. Just make sure the flaw is not negated by one of the other criterion.

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folder icon   07-11-2003, 09:45 AM
Post #2
Raszagil

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I don't believe in "natural rights" at all, in the context that you've put them in. You have no inherent rights outside of a stable government. You have no right to not be eaten (cannibals still exist), to have food to eat, even if you find food that doesn't mean a bigger human couldn't take it way from you. Even if you own yourself that doesn't mean you have a right to your own labor, look at communism for that. And even if you are free you have no natural right not to be taken as a slave by a stronger human.

Yes everyone has the same basic desires, food, freedom, safety, to speak freely and worship freely but a desire doesn't equate a natural right, IMO. A desire of multitudes of people doesn't equate a natural right either, just look at unstable countries and widespread human abuses to see what I mean. The desire of one ethnic race to destroy another comes to mind. Where are the natural rights of the ethnic race not to be destroyed?

<i> "In other words, the only evidence we have of this creator's "will" or "design" is what we can see in nature," </i>

It's might makes right..."natural rights" do not exist. If you are saying natural rights come from what we see in nature that proves my above paragraph... nature does not give anything or anyone natural rights. A bird can be born without the right to breed (sterile), the lion can effectively torture the zebra or a rival's cubs. Nature doesn't recognize rights, natural or otherwise. It is a purely human concept, so you can't really see it in nature....even among humans sometimes.

"Rights" come from some kind of stable government, with a police force and court system to back it up. Outside of that it is every man for himself. Sure people might gang up together and give each other rights, but that usually stops outside their own group.

Just some thoughts...

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Last edited by Raszagil on 07-11-2003 at 10:06 AM.
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folder icon   07-16-2003, 12:38 PM
Post #3
ice_wulf

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I found this website that explains it a bit
http://www.libertocracy.com/Librade...verdefinlaw.htm

They seem to mean: "Natural human rights are based entirely upon the self evident truth that the individual owns oneself, that the individual is sovereign by reason of the free will and has the right to choose to do anything one wishes that doesn't deny other individuals the equal right to the same freedom."

also, http://history.hanover.edu/texts/adamss.html: shows they were added to USA in: Samuel Adams,The Rights of the Colonists
The Report of the Committee of Correspondence
to the Boston Town Meeting, Nov. 20, 1772

Last edited by ice_wulf on 07-16-2003 at 01:42 PM.
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folder icon   07-16-2003, 02:14 PM
Post #4
Raszagil

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Quote:
Originally posted by ice_wulf
I found this website that explains it a bit
http://www.libertocracy.com/Librade...verdefinlaw.htm

They seem to mean: "Natural human rights are based entirely upon the self evident truth that the individual owns oneself, that the individual is sovereign by reason of the free will and has the right to choose to do anything one wishes that doesn't deny other individuals the equal right to the same freedom."



Okay....but do something for me. Take a walk through the worst part of Africa and see if this human concept of natural rights holds true. I think you will find that free will also means that disgruntled africans (or any unstable people) can chose to believe that you have no rights whatsoever, blame you for their problems, and either kill you or take you as a slave.

The individual may own themself but that can change in a blink of an eye. You have no natural right not to be taken advantage in any way by someone stronger then you. The individual may be soverign, but you also may not remain that way, as you have no natural right to remain that way.

There is no such thing as natural rights. And "rights" do not even exist outside of a society that honors a social contract stating that people have rights. Nature and people/nations with no social contract can do whatever the heck they want to you, it's might makes right. Thus, no natural rights.

Or to put it another way:

- You walk into the woods and get attacked and eaten by a bear. No natural rights, nature doesn't care. Kill or be Killed.

- You take a safari through the most unstable region of Africa. Your party is captured by rebels, you are held hostage and later, killed. So much for natural rights.

See what I mean?

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Last edited by Raszagil on 07-16-2003 at 02:23 PM.
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folder icon   07-16-2003, 02:38 PM
Post #5
ice_wulf

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Quote:
Originally posted by Raszagil
Okay....but do something for me. Take a walk through the worst part of Africa and see if this human concept of natural rights holds true. I think you will find that free will also means that disgruntled africans (or any unstable people) can chose to believe that you have no rights whatsoever, blame you for their problems, and either kill you or take you as a slave.



True.

That is one reason why there are problems in the world. Also, anyone can choose to deny that they have any rights, which doesn't help this concept of 'natural rights.' I have to agree, in some cases, there are no natural rights. If they are to be of use, it seems as if we all must be of the same social standing(for the freedom part, at least).

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folder icon   07-16-2003, 07:28 PM
Post #6
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u should be entitled to do wat u want as long as u cause no harm or influnce others to do harm upon therselves. rules are there for breaking and fixing, live the way u like when u like but dont do any wrong to others.

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folder icon   08-23-2003, 10:07 PM
Post #7
NiHil8R

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to friend of Fidel.

concerning the third criterion:
3) Natural rights are limited to human interaction, not interactions with other life forms.
3a) If a lion eats you, we don't say the lion has deprived you of your natural right to life.

Yes this is true but if you kill the lion have you deprived the lion from it's natural right to life? If natural rights apply only to human beings what makes them natural?

I also see a potential problem with premise 4 which is supposed to explain where these natural rights come from.

As you say the only evidence we have is what we see in nature. Nature is brutal.
Human beings like animals and plants have but one 'natural' obligation -survival. After all animals all have the same universal desires you describe in premise one. They also exist and were granted life just like you. They are a part of the "creator's will or design". So what justification is there for Premise 3 perhaps 3a is evidence that one does not have a natural right to life.

I prefer a social contract theory of rights.

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folder icon   08-23-2003, 11:21 PM
Post #8
Thorn969

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I pretty much agree that there are no natural rights and the only right you have is to be stronger than another being but... with a few reservations. The only reason we have these "natural rights" is because they were formed by the government which has enough stregnth to enforce them. But there is one right that cannot be taken away from any living human being. The right to think. The right to resist. The right to rebel. As long as your captor keeps you alive he wants something that you can give him. If you are kept so tied up you can't move and are being held for ransom you then lose even those rights. But usually you will have an opportunity to run away so he is forced to shoot you. Or to kill yourself. And you always have the right to think rebellious thoughts. That is the only real natural right. The right to think. No animal can think. Or at least think in the way we define thinking. Be self-conciousse. I think therefore I am. Sure in books they break people's minds but first of all I don't think it's possible second of all even if it were, you would still be able to think. When you stop thinking you stop being human. So fuck natural rights. You have whatever rights the strongest person/organization/group chooses to give you.

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folder icon   08-24-2003, 08:15 AM
Post #9
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Once a man has changed the relationship between himself and his environment, he cannot return to the blissful ignorance he left. Motion, of necessity, involves a change in perspective.

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