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Whats in the Works  
folder icon   03-08-2005, 01:16 PM
Whats in the Works Post #1
Ultra_punk

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Hey, just to let you know. The next big upgrade in the works are technologies.

Technology will have two categories for now, Offensive and Defensive. By increasing each level, your attack and defence will increase. However, as you increase the levels further the cost becomes much greater.

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folder icon   03-08-2005, 02:03 PM
Post #2
Antarus

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Ooooh, thanks for the heads up Ultra, I will begin hording gold and turns to upgrade units asap :-)

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folder icon   03-08-2005, 03:02 PM
Post #3
dimitri583

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hehe, upgrading is gonna get really really pricy very very quick but the benefits it will offer will definatly outweight the costs, especially when land and food is tight. itll be a very interesting element to add into the game

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folder icon   03-08-2005, 07:08 PM
Post #4
Forzan

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What role do the technology buildings play in upgrades- do you need to own a certain number of them in order to begin new levels of research?

Should we expect this in the next week?

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folder icon   03-08-2005, 07:16 PM
UPGRADING Post #5
Spud_Dragon

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Upgrades should take several turns. So the more upgrade buildings you have the more you can upgrade. Either make it cumulative: i.e. 10 buildings allows you to create 1 upgrade per turn, versus 1 every 10 turns,

Or, make it like Warcraft. If you have 4 upgrade buildings you can work on attack and Def points for 2 types of units.

Maybe you guys are going to several types of units:
buildings
light melee
heavy melee
light ranged
heavy ranged
caster type 1
caster type 2

Also I think upgrade buildings should be much more expensive.

If you guys are going with the 10 buildings gives one upgrade/turn method, then upgrade buildings could compete with farms and barracks and towers for land would make for complicated, but interesting strategies.

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folder icon   03-08-2005, 07:34 PM
Post #6
dimitri583

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There will be two types of upgrades... offensive upgrades and defensive upgrades. You initially start off at level 1 for each. To tech up to level 2 for either offensive or defense, it will cost 200 gold, and offer a 1% bonus of either offense or defense pts.

For example, if you have 1,000 offensive pts, if you tech up to level 2 offensive tech, you will have 1,010 offensive pts.

Each level will double in price... level 3 will cost 400 gold, level 4 will cost 800 gold... etc. Each level will add a 1% bonus to offense or defense.

The number of blacksmith structures you have will lower the price of the tech upgrade... the more you have, the cheaper it will cost. Initially, the discount bonus will be rather large, however, as you build more, there will be diminishing returns on cost reduction of teching up.

Each level of tech will take 1 turn to research.

We plan on preventing the abuse of quick teching (that is, demolishing farms to build many blacksmiths in order to get a bonus, and then demolish the blacksmiths for farms once again) by implementing starvation... if you are overcapacity and have many more units than you can support, your population will die at a certain rate each turn until equilibrium is reached.

Hopefully, we will have this system up and running by this weekend or early next week... maybe even sooner.

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folder icon   03-08-2005, 09:07 PM
Post #7
Forzan

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Can upgrades ever be free, or is there a minimum cost for any upgrade enforced by diminishing values of the buildings.

If not, are the dimishing returns you described because the buildings remove a set amount of cost from the value of the upgrade (and consequently remove a smaller overall percentage as the values double), or is it because they become less valuable as you get higher in upgrade level?

The first example would look something like: - 100*y

And it would have diminishing value effects like the following:
Level 10 Upgrade with 400 Buildings: 102,400 - 40,000
Level 20 Upgrade with 800 Buildings: 104,857,600 - 80,000
Level 40 Upgrade with 1600 Buildings: 109,951,162,777,600 - 160,000

The second example would look something like: - (100-x)*y

And it would have even more diminishing value effects:
Level 10 Upgrade with 400 Buildings: 102,400 - 36,000
Level 20 Upgrade with 800 Buildings: 104,857,600 - 64,000
Level 40 Upgrade with 1600 Buildings: 109,951,162,777,600 - 96,000

I imagine you could also have a set value that a building cost could never go below for any given upgrade (possibly half of the normal cost), but that would be lazy programming and would result in crappier gameplay.

I'm not asking for the real equation, that would remove whatever fun this game has. I'm just wondering what the method is.

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folder icon   03-08-2005, 11:55 PM
Abusing upgrades Post #8
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Dimitri-

Here is the only problem I see. The most effect strat for a dominat player is to save up forty turns, disband all units, buy all peasants and then earn a bunch of money with no upkeep.

It typically took me 7-10 turns to max out my supply at which I would demolish my barracks to get more farms. With upgrades I woulds simply demolish my barracks 3000 when I was at my highest level, and build blacksmiths.

The cost of upgrading will likely be so high a player would benefit from disbanding his army, only using half of his farms and deticating the rest to blacksmiths.

At 16000 land he could use 8000 for tech upgrading alone. You can see how after a few turns he would be able to decimate an unupgraded player?

The problem here is only that favors dominate players.



I don't know how to fix the problem, and maybe there is a limit to the handicaps we can put on them.

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folder icon   03-09-2005, 12:32 AM
Post #9
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Halandis wow, wait, lets get the info in the game first, and yes the dominant player will have the advantage, but that is only natural. There should be some advantage to being more powerful than others.

I think that the more upgrade facilities you have should start to cost your nation in other areas. Yes upgrading will be an advantage over those who have not upgraded, but if you want a discount you have to use up more land for upgrades as apposed to defense or attack.

Here is the problem, lets say you have sold off farms, or barraks, or towers to get more upgrading buildings and then get an atack launched agauinst you? Granted you should have units protecting you, but you may now loose because of a possible cheaper upgrade?

Wait and see how the upgrades work before suggesting fixes.

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folder icon   03-09-2005, 01:25 AM
Post #10
dimitri583

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Forzan- i can't give you the formula or methodology we are using for the blacksmith discount bonus... we need to keep some factors secret, afterall, in order to prevent players from figuring out mathematically how to cheat and win... there needs to be some mystery

I'll hint in that its much more similair to your second example, although you would need to replace the binomial with a logarythmic function to get it exact The actual discount bonus will be significant, but grow less with each additional blacksmith constructed... in order to prevent the total cost of upgrading from falling to 0... or even below 50% for that matter.

Halandis- we are designing the game at much smaller scale than it is in now... people should not be able to gain 16,000 acres of land. granted, under the current system, it does happen, but we feel once we get more aspects of the game in place, that will tend to not happen as often. Watch how attacks work this round... you'll see what i mean



Also, remember. Its not a gain unless all your costs added together will cause you to atleast break even. You need to factor in the cost of the demolished structures (minus the amount you retain) as well as blacksmith construction, and losses from starvation. We hope to have avoided any possible abuse of the system, but if you are infact able to abuse it in anyway, please, report it Thats what the beta is all about, afterall.

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folder icon   03-09-2005, 05:05 AM
Post #11
Forzan

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimitri583

I'll hint in that its much more similair to your second example, although you would need to replace the binomial with a logarythmic function to get it exact The actual discount bonus will be significant, but grow less with each additional blacksmith constructed... in order to prevent the total cost of upgrading from falling to 0... or even below 50% for that matter.


That's all I wanted to know.

Halandis, you really shouldn't worry about that happening- with a logarithmic decay, you're going to receive a percentage discount and having even 16000 tech buildings won't help you much more than 1000 - depending on the equation that is.

Dimitri, you should worry that there is a perfect number of tech buildings, a point that can be found where the cost of the building can be weighted against the reduction of the upgrade cost.

By sacrificing 5-10 turns, it can be pinned down exactly. A math game is just a math game, no matter how many complexities are added. A dedicated player can find all of the equations and create the perfect first 150 turns and dominate the game every round.

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folder icon   03-09-2005, 10:01 AM
Post #12
dimitri583

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This is true. We have been thinking about adding a randomizer to all equations to set them off by an amount considerable enough so that people would be unable to completely predict outcomes, but not too much as to completely throw off players... something to give numbers that are 'in the neighborhood of', rather than exactly x. this might help, but we will certainly have to think of other ideas as well. We need to be creative, and stay ahead of the curve.

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folder icon   03-09-2005, 12:28 PM
Post #13
Ultra_punk

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As for time line, think weekend or next week. I believe dim has explained everything else pretty well.

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