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folder icon   06-17-2005, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Morkeliph
XBOX has more going for it than Halo...like Ninja Gaiden, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic and many others. Halo is popular, but it's not the only thing XBOX has going on, it is the most powerful system on the market.

KOTOR is on Xbox? How does that work? I need almost my entire keyboard for that game, and a mouse!

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folder icon   06-17-2005, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by True Neutral
KOTOR is on Xbox? How does that work? I need almost my entire keyboard for that game, and a mouse!
I don't use that many keyboard shortcuts myself... no more than are on a controller. I got it on my PC though because my PC is capable of much better graphics than an Xbox... though for some reason the plains outsite of the Jedi Temple bring my computer to a grinding halt... it's very odd, I play the rest of the game with full details and 2x anti-aliasing but just that one part runs aweful even at the lowest resolution with everything turned off or set at the lowest detail.

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folder icon   06-17-2005, 01:17 PM
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Yeah, it's a common problem. The grass is weird and causes most computers to slow down.

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folder icon   06-18-2005, 05:27 AM
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Regarding HD.. how many of you actually HAVE HD capable tvs? They actually did give a reason for the move. It had something to do with the image and texture quality. You blow that up to high definition, suddenly it looks like shit. Good example, take an N64 title and run that in an emulator with the highest settings (or heck, look at the Ocarina of Time bonus disk for Gamecube). It looks like pure crap on that system because it was not designed for that resolution.

Personally though, I don't care what the reason is. I don't own an HD capable tv. I won't be playing on an HD capable tv. It makes absolutely no difference to me what they do with it.

Caparing HD to the difference between CDs and carts is also really excessive. HD isn't even that great of a picture quality increase. In the end, it's not that big a deal.

As far as power, they have said nothing about that. So don't even say the system can't compete with the other two until they do. In any case, look at PS2. Least powerful of the three current systems. Graphics look like ass compared to them (seriously Sony, it's called antialiasing). But it's the most popular because of the games. Graphics and power don't mean crap if your library blows.

PS3 I have no interest in. Unless they can find a way to make that thing affordable (and I find that unlikely with all the bloated useless crap they are throwing in it) there is no way I'm getting one. Which is another thing. I saw an article that really turned me off on the system. It's gone now for some reason (it was right here but that link is dead for some reason now) but it was basically Sony saying PS3 is "not a game machine" but an "entertainment device". The whole thing went in to how the game part was only this tiny aspect of the console and it's really this big entertainment device like it was some VCR-DVD combo or something. I think that attitude is pretty rediculous personally. Oh, and the system design (esp. the controllers) look like ass If the price comes down and they get some good games, I might consider getting one. Until then, I'll stick with Revolution. I don't even care about Xbox 360. Xbox regular still doesn't have more than a handful of decent games (you know, non Halo clones at least).

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folder icon   06-18-2005, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock
Regarding HD.. how many of you actually HAVE HD capable tvs?
I will in the next year, probably by the time the Revolution is released. I believe in that article they throw up some numbers... like two years ago 4% of homes had HDTV, now 12% do. In the life of the console (let's say five years), expect that half of all homes will have it. And trust me, for those with HDTV, this will hurt Revolution tremendiously.
Quote:
It had something to do with the image and texture quality. You blow that up to high definition, suddenly it looks like shit. Good example, take an N64 title and run that in an emulator with the highest settings (or heck, look at the Ocarina of Time bonus disk for Gamecube). It looks like pure crap on that system because it was not designed for that resolution.
Like you just said, that is because those games aren't designed for that high resolution and they all use low res textures. A game developed for HDTV will look good, which all Xbox 360 & PS3 games will be. Now blow up your Revolutions game on a 40-60 inch screen and it will look like crap by comparision.
Quote:
Caparing HD to the difference between CDs and carts is also really excessive. HD isn't even that great of a picture quality increase. In the end, it's not that big a deal.
Obviously you haven't watched any true HDTV (not normal TV stretched on an HDTV, but an acctual program broadcast in HD).... the differance is huge. HD broadcasting delivers 720 or 1080 lines of resolution compared to the 525 of normal TV.
Quote:
As far as power, they have said nothing about that. So don't even say the system can't compete with the other two until they do. In any case, look at PS2. Least powerful of the three current systems. Graphics look like ass compared to them (seriously Sony, it's called antialiasing). But it's the most popular because of the games. Graphics and power don't mean crap if your library blows.
The key differance here is that PS2 was first to market by a decent margin and they had backward compatibility with the PS1, which was the current market leader and no other system offered this. Nintendo in this case is likely the least powerful, will be the last to the market, and thus initially have the smallest amount of games. And Nintendo has never really been a master of getting third parties, they have lagged behind Sony in third party support since the PS1 days and behind Microsoft in recent years too. Third parties will go to the system that with the biggest market share and that's not Nintendo.

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folder icon   06-18-2005, 09:23 PM
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I had a guy who works for Mark Cuban's (owner of the mavs) media center and he said that in the next 6 years they are going to change tv frequencies over from what they use now to HDTV frequencies and that the old televisions won't work properly anymore. I don't know if this is true or not maybe the guy was just blowing steam up our asses b ut he seemed like he meant it.

Im alittle confused on something also the PS3 is going to be just as powerful if not more powerful than the 360 which takes away xbox's biggest advantage that they are the "most powerful console" which means that the games that come out are going to decide which system wins and I'll put my money on playstation anyday. I totally got to agree with warlock on this one.

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folder icon   06-18-2005, 09:38 PM
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First off, 12% is nothing. 12% does not even account for the increased costs of producing HD quality products. The only reason it is even *that* high is because most of the newer tvs come with it. Granted those TVs range between $2000-$6000. Don't expect that number to suddenly skyrocket until that price comes down.

But in the end, does it matter? If you play WarCraft III at 1600x1200 instead of 1028x768, does the game somehow become more fun? It's the same game. The best graphics in the world are not going to save a shitty game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K.J.
I had a guy who works for Mark Cuban's (owner of the mavs) media center and he said that in the next 6 years they are going to change tv frequencies over from what they use now to HDTV frequencies and that the old televisions won't work properly anymore. I don't know if this is true or not maybe the guy was just blowing steam up our asses b ut he seemed like he meant it.

And secondly, yeah this is BS. The numbers would have to be > 85% before I think they would even consider something like this. "Oh, I'm sorry, your TV is now worthless. Have fun shelling out cash to buy a brand new one even though there was technically nothing wrong with your old one."

Thirdly, all I have to say is, free wireless internet. That is enough for me. I would never play Xbox Live because I don't want to pay for that crap. But as far as I know, Revolution is the only system offering free internet service right out of the box. One of the launch titles is even an online Super Smash Bros game. Add to that the backwards compatibility with GameCube titles and a library of over 200 NES/SNES/N64 games to download (and this is just 1st party Nintendo stuff, no word on what 3rd parties will offer yet) and they don't even have to say anything else about the system. Keep in mind this is all without announcing the core of the system. This is all extras.

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folder icon   06-19-2005, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Posted by Warlock:
Thirdly, all I have to say is, free wireless internet. That is enough for me. I would never play Xbox Live because I don't want to pay for that crap. But as far as I know, Revolution is the only system offering free internet service right out of the box. One of the launch titles is even an online Super Smash Bros game. Add to that the backwards compatibility with GameCube titles and a library of over 200 NES/SNES/N64 games to download (and this is just 1st party Nintendo stuff, no word on what 3rd parties will offer yet) and they don't even have to say anything else about the system. Keep in mind this is all without announcing the core of the system. This is all extras.
sold. thats all i need to know to make up my mind. not that there was ever really a deliberation. when you get down to it im as much of a nintendo fanboy as anybody. i couldnt take a system without Zelda, Metroid, and Mario

anyone who says GC only had a couple of good games has no eye for good games. ive got at least 15 or 20 games, and all of them are very good. theres lots of good games i dont have for it, too. not to mention ones coming out last half of this year.

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folder icon   06-19-2005, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock
First off, 12% is nothing. 12% does not even account for the increased costs of producing HD quality products. The only reason it is even *that* high is because most of the newer tvs come with it. Granted those TVs range between $2000-$6000. Don't expect that number to suddenly skyrocket until that price comes down.

But in the end, does it matter? If you play WarCraft III at 1600x1200 instead of 1028x768, does the game somehow become more fun? It's the same game. The best graphics in the world are not going to save a shitty game.



And secondly, yeah this is BS. The numbers would have to be > 85% before I think they would even consider something like this. "Oh, I'm sorry, your TV is now worthless. Have fun shelling out cash to buy a brand new one even though there was technically nothing wrong with your old one."

Thirdly, all I have to say is, free wireless internet. That is enough for me. I would never play Xbox Live because I don't want to pay for that crap. But as far as I know, Revolution is the only system offering free internet service right out of the box. One of the launch titles is even an online Super Smash Bros game. Add to that the backwards compatibility with GameCube titles and a library of over 200 NES/SNES/N64 games to download (and this is just 1st party Nintendo stuff, no word on what 3rd parties will offer yet) and they don't even have to say anything else about the system. Keep in mind this is all without announcing the core of the system. This is all extras.


12% is enough. Not everyone in America buys systems, but the 12% who buy HD TVs most probably will. I'm not saying it's a total revolution but it does have some merit and shouldn't be entirely overlooked.

Resolution matters in FPS.... that's pretty much it.

PS2 had free internet and will probably do the same with PS3. Xbox charged you a little to offer better service. Lets face it, PS2 online sucked balls. The online systems seemed like a afterthought where only the most basic features were installed. Xbox decided to create an entire network of communication and gaming instead and only charged you 50$ a year. I don't see how you can buy WoW for 60$ then come home and pay like 100$ a year to play that ONE game and then bitch that Xbox charges you 50$ to play any online capable game they offer.

As for Revolution, lets look at the past.

NES - No real competition, does well.
SNES - No real competition at initial release and does well.
N64 - Oh snap we just got owned by PS1!
Gamecube - Oh snap we just got own by PS2 and Xbox!
Revolution - Yeah we own the entire world because we've magically discovered how to compete in a market. We've decided to offer less to our customers while providing excellent titles such as "Mario's Roadtrip" and "Metroid 7: Alien Danceoff". We've decided to take a gratuitous step towards gaming and have bought a Resident Evil titles! Congratulations kiddies, you'll get to blow up zombies! You haven't been doing this for years already on other consoles back when you were 8 years old!

Face it, Revolution will nail the coffin in the board. I'm probably the one guy you should all be listening to because I'm more of a gamer than anyone else on this site. I conisistently get ranked in scoreboards and my dad knows everything there is to know about consoles. Fuck, later i'll just ask him what he thinks.

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folder icon   06-19-2005, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.J.
I had a guy who works for Mark Cuban's (owner of the mavs) media center and he said that in the next 6 years they are going to change tv frequencies over from what they use now to HDTV frequencies and that the old televisions won't work properly anymore. I don't know if this is true or not maybe the guy was just blowing steam up our asses b ut he seemed like he meant it.

Congress passed a bill in 1995 that said all networks need to switch to digital transmisiion by the end of 2005. This only concerns people who don't have cable. If your television needs an antenna, then it will become obsolete when they transition, unless you buy a $50 converter. The bill will probably get extended due to the large number of people who don't have tv's capable of receiving digital transmission.

Face it Warlock, specs matter to the masses. While I am currently enjoying revisiting Super Mario RPG and therefore certainly realize as much as any true gamer that good graphics don't always equal a good game, graphics sell. Hell, just look at Doom 3. Beyond that, if we're capable, I'd certainly rather be playing something top of the line. Just because I enjoy a classic doesn't mean that I am anti-anti-aliasing or against bump mapping. Better graphics enhance games as long as they're used to do just that, as opposed to being the focus of the game. I just don't appreciate developers(and movie directors, for that matter) thinking that we're all amazed by bright flashes and pretty colors.

I'm with dark jester here, except for on two points. One, I don't think his/her opinion counts for more than anyone else's, especially if he's basing his opinion on what his dad says. And two, Nintendo had competition for the SNES with the Sega Genesis and did well. I thought Sega had better games, but Nintendo still won the competition. They were capable of competing at one point, but they've lost it and I doubt they will rediscover their magic in time to keep from going broke.

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folder icon   06-19-2005, 04:51 PM
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first sega and the Snes broke about even neither system did that much better than the other.

And as Warlock pointed out the other systems are trying to increase the price of their consoles but say that you get all these extra features that your not really ever going to want and/or use. Nintendo on the other hand is keeping it cheap, simple, and giving you lots of free extra incentives. I'm not saying saying that they are going to sell out at first but when it comes time for people to start buying 2nd consoles I beat you'll see nintendo sells increase like you did with the gamecube.

Xbox isn't doing that much better than nintendo now and their system is alot more powerful only goes to futher support my argument that it's not how much power you haave but the quality of games you have.

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folder icon   06-19-2005, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IKickPuppies
Congress passed a bill in 1995 that said all networks need to switch to digital transmisiion by the end of 2005. This only concerns people who don't have cable. If your television needs an antenna, then it will become obsolete when they transition, unless you buy a $50 converter. The bill will probably get extended due to the large number of people who don't have tv's capable of receiving digital transmission.

Face it Warlock, specs matter to the masses. While I am currently enjoying revisiting Super Mario RPG and therefore certainly realize as much as any true gamer that good graphics don't always equal a good game, graphics sell. Hell, just look at Doom 3. Beyond that, if we're capable, I'd certainly rather be playing something top of the line. Just because I enjoy a classic doesn't mean that I am anti-anti-aliasing or against bump mapping. Better graphics enhance games as long as they're used to do just that, as opposed to being the focus of the game. I just don't appreciate developers(and movie directors, for that matter) thinking that we're all amazed by bright flashes and pretty colors.

I'm with dark jester here, except for on two points. One, I don't think his/her opinion counts for more than anyone else's, especially if he's basing his opinion on what his dad says. And two, Nintendo had competition for the SNES with the Sega Genesis and did well. I thought Sega had better games, but Nintendo still won the competition. They were capable of competing at one point, but they've lost it and I doubt they will rediscover their magic in time to keep from going broke.


All that was my opinion, didn't talk to my dad today i'll let u know what he think later.

You think Sega was real competition? SNES had control of the market PRIOR to Sega releasing, and then Sega killed itself with all their Console BS. Besides, who liked sega games? Sonic and NBA Jam was all they had.

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folder icon   06-20-2005, 01:32 AM
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[QUOTE=Warlock]First off, 12% is nothing. 12% does not even account for the increased costs of producing HD quality products. The only reason it is even *that* high is because most of the newer tvs come with it. Granted those TVs range between $2000-$6000. Don't expect that market share have to do with increased cost of HD products? Most newer TVs are not HD, but the prices are rapidly coming down and you get get an HDTV for under $700 now days... the only way you're spending $6000 is if you need one of those fancy 2" deep plasma displays. You'll get a damn fine TV for $2000.

Quote:
But in the end, does it matter? If you play WarCraft III at 1600x1200 instead of 1028x768, does the game somehow become more fun? It's the same game. The best graphics in the world are not going to save a shitty game.
I understand your analogy, but you to accurately represent this situation, you need to subsititue 1024x768 with 640x480, because that is as high as you can go on a normal TV screen. Try and play some games at that res and tell me how they look. Most PC games won't even go this low. To get an example of what a 640x480 game looks like, load up your old copy of Duke Nukem 3D.
Quote:
And secondly, yeah this is BS. The numbers would have to be > 85% before I think they would even consider something like this.

It's true, but don't hold your breath... it's a long way off, and you can get converters so your old TVs will still work.
Quote:
Thirdly, all I have to say is, free wireless internet. That is enough for me. I would never play Xbox Live because I don't want to pay for that crap. But as far as I know, Revolution is the only system offering free internet service right out of the box. One of the launch titles is even an online Super Smash Bros game. Add to that the backwards compatibility with GameCube titles and a library of over 200 NES/SNES/N64 games to download (and this is just 1st party Nintendo stuff, no word on what 3rd parties will offer yet) and they don't even have to say anything else about the system. Keep in mind this is all without announcing the core of the system. This is all extras.
FYI, there are free online services for Xbox you can play right now. Try Xboxconnect for example, and I know there is at least one more. Xbox live works much better though, because it is integrated right in the games (I believe all 360 games will have some sort of support) and the chat/messaging system works great. Plus it costs big $$$ to run the servers to but on these kind of services. By providing a charge system, Microsoft can afford to run their own servers that they can work to keep free from cheating to keep games fair. Now let any old company run their own servers or push the games to a peer to peer model (which is more likely in most cases) and cheating is going to become a much greater issue. Plus Xbox live is only about $75 a year. For less than the cost of two games, you can add huge amounts of replayability to all your exsisting games.

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folder icon   06-20-2005, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IKickPuppies
And two, Nintendo had competition for the SNES with the Sega Genesis and did well. I thought Sega had better games, but Nintendo still won the competition. They were capable of competing at one point, but they've lost it and I doubt they will rediscover their magic in time to keep from going broke.

SEGA and Nintendo was a heated battle in the 16 bit days. In the end, I think Nintendo bested Sega in overall market share, but not by much. SNES was the more powerful of the systems, it offered a far higher color depth but speed and memory wise they were similar, SNES had a slight edge. It also had the (highly overrated) mode 7 scaling, which Genisis had nothing like. Nintendo had the biggest market share with the NES at the beganing of the 16 bit days, and the SNES was released when the Genisis was really starting to make a dent. Nintendo did well in mirgrating it's previous users over to the SNES by making sequels to it's classic games (most notably the highly successful launch title Super Mario World and later Legend of Zelda) and third parties behind them. Regarding third parties though, SEGA had nearly all the same third parties that Nintendo did, most games that weren't developed by first or second parties were on both systems.

So it really came down to which games you prefered. Sega had a far better sports lineup with their Sega Sports titles, and had some other great games like Sonic, Toe Jam & Earl... well, basically everything first party by Sega was gold.

On the Nintendo end, if you were a Mario/Zelda/Donkey Kong fan, this was your system of choice.

SEGA's follow-up system, Saturn, never took off and ultimately doomed their console business. The Saturn was a powerful system, but it was too expensive and third parties found it notoriously difficult to program for the multiprocessor system. Sega had developed first party tools they used, and continued to make great games with, but only made them available to third parties when their console was already dieing. This basic process lead to a lack of third party software. Couple this with long load times on a format that was still new along with the sudden rise of the more powerful PS and it was over for Sega. Dreamcast was a good followup system and was done right, but Sega had lost so much of their core audience from the Saturn debocile that they could never recover.

Nintendo's follow-up system, the N64, may have also sealed their fate. They released after Saturn, but Saturn was never their true competition, this came from Sony's PlayStation. The PS was a slower system with less RAM and displayed lower quality textures as a result, but it was a hit with a wide selection of sports titles and games like Twisted Metal and Metal Gear Solid. Because Sony opted to use CDs for the PS, they were cheaper and quicker to produce. Nintendo went with the cartidge format again, which cost more overall to produce and could only be purchased by third parties through Nintendo's own factorys. This caused the price of a game for third parties to be only a few dollars for the PS but around $20 a game for the N64. This is why you saw many PS games for under $50 and many Nintendo games pushing $70. Not surprizingly, the sub $50 games sold much better and third parties flocked to the PS. In addtion, the storage space on cartridges was far, far smaller than on CDs. CDs could have high quality streaming music and video, whereas Nintendo had to either have short clips or use MIDI music. Just as SEGA lost this battle due to third party support, so did Nintendo.

The Gamecube was released in competition with PS2, Xbox, and the Dreamcast. PS2 had gained huge market share by being the first system out and by getting many PS users by offering backward compatability for their old games. Nintendo had a huge amount of ground to make up, and they needed some sort of hook to get users to come back. Instead, they released a console with no clear killer app (Mario Sunshine was not, and Zelda's cell shading was panned by most, Metroit Prime was probably the closest they had), had half the storage capacity of they other major players (maybe you think those little DVD's are cute, but cute doesn't sell), and had a revolutionary control scheme that proved to be less revolutionary and more a hinderance to games if they weren't some sort of behind the back 3D adventure. Sony had the most games (and a very popular GTA series that was really bringing in adult gamers), Microsoft had the most powerfull hardware (and probably the most popular game in Halo), and all Nintendo had left were it's loyal fans... fans who were quickly turning elsewhere because while they liked the Nintendo 1st party games, third party support just wasn't there like it was for the other big guys.

Nintendo Revolutions will be competing with PS3 and Xbox. It will be the last to market of these three systems and will be fighting an uphill battle to gain market share and regain the many N64 and Gamecube users who have been left with a bad taste in their mouth. Worse yet, all indications seem to be that the Revolution will be the least powerful of the three systems. Looks sell, it's a fact. Microsoft and Sony will be holding that card over Nintendo the whole time. Nintendo seems to feel they can drop a few features and hope that no one will notice after they slap a lower pricetag on their hardware. How much lower is yet to be seen. Nintendo also has not developed a new franchise since the SNES days and many gamers are growing tired of the rehashing of Mario/Zelda/Metriod that accompany every Nintendo launch.... but to other gamers, that's a huge selling point.

From everything I have seen, the future for Nintendo is bleak. Very, very bleak. They've jaded a number of gamers from their previous two systems failures and haven't done anything new to excite people. And it certainly didn't help that they sold off their top second party developer (Rare) to their competition, who will be releasing one of the most anticipated games for their system (Perfect Dark for Xbox 360). The only people I see purchasing a Revolution are the Nintendo Fanboys right now, and that's just not a big enough market anymore. There is just nothing they are doing that will excite anyone else.

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folder icon   06-20-2005, 04:47 AM
Post #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris
SEGA and Nintendo was a heated battle in the 16 bit days. In the end, I think Nintendo bested Sega in overall market share, but not by much. SNES was the more powerful of the systems, it offered a far higher color depth but speed and memory wise they were similar, SNES had a slight edge. It also had the (highly overrated) mode 7 scaling, which Genisis had nothing like. Nintendo had the biggest market share with the NES at the beganing of the 16 bit days, and the SNES was released when the Genisis was really starting to make a dent. Nintendo did well in mirgrating it's previous users over to the SNES by making sequels to it's classic games (most notably the highly successful launch title Super Mario World and later Legend of Zelda) and third parties behind them. Regarding third parties though, SEGA had nearly all the same third parties that Nintendo did, most games that weren't developed by first or second parties were on both systems.

So it really came down to which games you prefered. Sega had a far better sports lineup with their Sega Sports titles, and had some other great games like Sonic, Toe Jam & Earl... well, basically everything first party by Sega was gold.

On the Nintendo end, if you were a Mario/Zelda/Donkey Kong fan, this was your system of choice.

SEGA's follow-up system, Saturn, never took off and ultimately doomed their console business. The Saturn was a powerful system, but it was too expensive and third parties found it notoriously difficult to program for the multiprocessor system. Sega had developed first party tools they used, and continued to make great games with, but only made them available to third parties when their console was already dieing. This basic process lead to a lack of third party software. Couple this with long load times on a format that was still new along with the sudden rise of the more powerful PS and it was over for Sega. Dreamcast was a good followup system and was done right, but Sega had lost so much of their core audience from the Saturn debocile that they could never recover.


Sega Genesis was popular but not *that* popular. For the most part, if you could get it on Genesis, you could get it on SNES. Sega first party stuff was the main exception. Now Sega did have some good first party stuff which is probably one of the main reasons it did as well as it did, but in terms of third party support I think SNES had a pretty big lead over Sega. Not to mention some big companies like Square were almost exclusively on the SNES.
Quote:

Nintendo's follow-up system, the N64, may have also sealed their fate. They released after Saturn, but Saturn was never their true competition, this came from Sony's PlayStation. The PS was a slower system with less RAM and displayed lower quality textures as a result, but it was a hit with a wide selection of sports titles and games like Twisted Metal and Metal Gear Solid. Because Sony opted to use CDs for the PS, they were cheaper and quicker to produce. Nintendo went with the cartidge format again, which cost more overall to produce and could only be purchased by third parties through Nintendo's own factorys. This caused the price of a game for third parties to be only a few dollars for the PS but around $20 a game for the N64. This is why you saw many PS games for under $50 and many Nintendo games pushing $70. Not surprizingly, the sub $50 games sold much better and third parties flocked to the PS. In addtion, the storage space on cartridges was far, far smaller than on CDs. CDs could have high quality streaming music and video, whereas Nintendo had to either have short clips or use MIDI music. Just as SEGA lost this battle due to third party support, so did Nintendo.

The main problem here was Nintendo got some bad research. They did consider CD technology. This is why you will see Nintendo licenced products on the Phillips CD-i. The only problem was Nintendo had nothing to do with these games, they absolutely blew, and the system itself was an utter failure. In fact, Nintendo had plans with Sony to create the Playstation X, but then backed out on that. Sony basically took those plans, turned them into the Playstation (hence the abbreviation PSX though) and bested Nintendo through sheer volume. Nintendo also made the mistake of pissing off Squaresoft (I still think Yamauchi was to blame for that.. he was an arrogant jackass who thankfully has retired now) which didn't help matters when suddenly you had to go to Sony for Square titles like Final Fantasy. But overall the 3rd parties embraced the CD format (easier to develop on, cheap, etc) which hurt Nintendo.

As far as game pricing, I don't believe any N64 games were over $50 unless they came with some kind of peripheral.
Quote:
The Gamecube was released in competition with PS2, Xbox, and the Dreamcast. PS2 had gained huge market share by being the first system out and by getting many PS users by offering backward compatability for their old games. Nintendo had a huge amount of ground to make up, and they needed some sort of hook to get users to come back. Instead, they released a console with no clear killer app (Mario Sunshine was not, and Zelda's cell shading was panned by most, Metroit Prime was probably the closest they had), had half the storage capacity of they other major players (maybe you think those little DVD's are cute, but cute doesn't sell), and had a revolutionary control scheme that proved to be less revolutionary and more a hinderance to games if they weren't some sort of behind the back 3D adventure. Sony had the most games (and a very popular GTA series that was really bringing in adult gamers), Microsoft had the most powerfull hardware (and probably the most popular game in Halo), and all Nintendo had left were it's loyal fans... fans who were quickly turning elsewhere because while they liked the Nintendo 1st party games, third party support just wasn't there like it was for the other big guys.

Actually Super Smash Bros. Melee was released in December the year it came out I believe.. for launch titles they also had Star Wars: Rogue Leader which was a big hit. But really, killer app had nothing to do with it. PS2 didn't have one either. What the hell did they have? Fantavision. It was actually quite awhile before they had some decent titles on that system. I don't know where you got "revolutionary control scheme" from either. The thing was no different from any other controller except for the button shapes. They never touted it as revolutionary either. The only real problem with the GC controller is the tiny D-pad.. that thing is way too small.

Storage capacity didn't mean much either. The only game I can recall offhand that even needed two disks was Resident Evil because it had so many cinematics that changed due to character choice (essentially two times as many as one playthrough). There were probably a few others. No where near the amount of disk swapping on the PS1 however, which conviently you do not mention The smaller disks were harder to pirate and faster to load. So I don't see what your arguement even is here.

You would actually be surprised though, because despite lesser sales compared to Xbox and PS2, Nintendo actually made more money off Gamecube than Sony or Microsoft did on their systems. Because they weren't selling each system at a loss, they actually came out on top revenue-wise.
Quote:
Nintendo Revolutions will be competing with PS3 and Xbox. It will be the last to market of these three systems and will be fighting an uphill battle to gain market share and regain the many N64 and Gamecube users who have been left with a bad taste in their mouth. Worse yet, all indications seem to be that the Revolution will be the least powerful of the three systems. Looks sell, it's a fact. Microsoft and Sony will be holding that card over Nintendo the whole time. Nintendo seems to feel they can drop a few features and hope that no one will notice after they slap a lower pricetag on their hardware. How much lower is yet to be seen. Nintendo also has not developed a new franchise since the SNES days and many gamers are growing tired of the rehashing of Mario/Zelda/Metriod that accompany every Nintendo launch.... but to other gamers, that's a huge selling point.

From everything I have seen, the future for Nintendo is bleak. Very, very bleak. They've jaded a number of gamers from their previous two systems failures and haven't done anything new to excite people. And it certainly didn't help that they sold off their top second party developer (Rare) to their competition, who will be releasing one of the most anticipated games for their system (Perfect Dark for Xbox 360). The only people I see purchasing a Revolution are the Nintendo Fanboys right now, and that's just not a big enough market anymore. There is just nothing they are doing that will excite anyone else.

Way to be overly dramatic. And wrong. First off, no specs have been released for Revolution. So don't even comment on its power compared to the other systems. "Nintendo seems to feel they can drop a few features and hope that no one will notice after they slap a lower pricetag on their hardware." What features are they dropping? This makes no sense. It *will* have a lower price tag (probably about $200 like the GameCube) while all indications actually show PS3 as being the most expensive of the three. Revolution's release date has not been announced so there is no room to comment there either.

As far as franchises go, they actually have a ton of new stuff:
http://games.ign.com/objects/025/025047.html?fromint=1

Some highlights from GameCube:
1080 Avalanche
Advance Wars
Animal Crossing
Fire Emblem (actually an old franchise, but new to the US)
Pikmin

There are others as well (that list seems to be missing a few). I know at the very least they unvealed a few new franchise titles at e3 this year.

Oh, and give me a minute to laugh at your Rare comment. How are you enjoying "Grabbed by Ghoulies"? I think that's all they have put out since Nintendo sold them haha.. Most of the original staff responsible for Goldeneye or Perfect Dark are long gone from that company anyways. Perfect Dark 0 is a joke from everything I've read. Besides which, the thing was supposed to be for Xbox. You'll be lucky if that's the only Rare title you see on 360.

You are entitled to your opinions about which system you like, but don't be condescending to anyone who happens to like Nintendo franchises just because you don't. Hell, did you even do research on the Revolution before you came here? You havn't once mentioned any of the announced features, even negatively. You just said, "Oh, no HD support.. it will fail." Whatever. I am done posting here because I am sick of these pointless arguements.

P.S. - as far as the "lonely disenfranchised fanboy" support comment, this is really the only forum where I have not seen a general interest in Revolution, and this is coming from forums that usually support PS2/Xbox stuff.

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folder icon   06-20-2005, 11:28 AM
Post #51
Kris

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock
Sega Genesis was popular but not *that* popular. For the most part, if you could get it on Genesis, you could get it on SNES. Sega first party stuff was the main exception. Now Sega did have some good first party stuff which is probably one of the main reasons it did as well as it did, but in terms of third party support I think SNES had a pretty big lead over Sega. Not to mention some big companies like Square were almost exclusively on the SNES.
I forgot the Nintendo lost Square... probably because I've never liked anything Square did myself. Third party wise, they had pretty much everything SNES had... aside from Square and a few other Nintendo loyal developers. SEGA also had third party developers that were only for them, like Working Designs.
Quote:
As far as game pricing, I don't believe any N64 games were over $50 unless they came with some kind of peripheral.

http://www.wpi.edu/News/TechNews/00...ideogames.shtml

From this article:
Plus, while PSX games are stored on CD's, which are easily scratched, Nintendo games are durable cartridges. For this reason, a N64 game can cost $10-$20 more than a similar CD game.

Trust me, as someone who bought their own games, the N64 games were more.
Quote:
Actually Super Smash Bros. Melee was released in December the year it came out I believe.. for launch titles they also had Star Wars: Rogue Leader which was a big hit. But really, killer app had nothing to do with it. PS2 didn't have one either. What the hell did they have? Fantavision.

GTA3.
Quote:
I don't know where you got "revolutionary control scheme" from either. The thing was no different from any other controller except for the button shapes. They never touted it as revolutionary either. The only real problem with the GC controller is the tiny D-pad.. that thing is way too small.

Yeah, button shapes. They were supposed to be so great for playing 3D type games, so revolutionary. With one giant button right in the middle that performed all your actions, hurray! Nintendo said it would change the way we played, but it just frustrated people that played games that weren't 3d action platformers. And yes, the D-pad sucked.
Quote:
Storage capacity didn't mean much either. The only game I can recall offhand that even needed two disks was Resident Evil because it had so many cinematics that changed due to character choice (essentially two times as many as one playthrough). There were probably a few others. No where near the amount of disk swapping on the PS1 however, which conviently you do not mention The smaller disks were harder to pirate and faster to load. So I don't see what your arguement even is here.
First, you are comparing PS1 to Gamecube here, which isn't right. PS1 is a single CD system with 640 megs of storage, PS2 is what you should be comparing with 4.7 gigs of storrage, double that of the Gamecube. Developers know the cost of producing games on multiple DVD's is more costly and no one likes disk swapping, so they avoid it like a kerosine soaked yetti avoids fire. So they do things like lower video quality, lower sound quality, lower texture quality, or cut out things all together so it fits on one disk.
Quote:
Way to be overly dramatic. And wrong. First off, no specs have been released for Revolution. So don't even comment on its power compared to the other systems.
It will be less than the other two systems. Geeze, read the first link out of my first post.
Quote:
"Nintendo seems to feel they can drop a few features and hope that no one will notice after they slap a lower pricetag on their hardware." What features are they dropping?
HDTV support for one. A true online network like Xbox live for another. Nintendo has stated it's just for games, so some of those extra bells and whistles you get with Xbox 360/PS3 (mostly seeming to regard online play) won't be there.
Quote:
As far as franchises go, they actually have a ton of new stuff:

Some highlights from GameCube:
1080 Avalanche old, from N64
Advance Wars old, from GBA, but probably will be a good game
Animal Crossing old, from n64, but apparently fun
Fire Emblem (actually an old franchise, but new to the US)
Pikmin old, and never that good anyways
Quote:
Oh, and give me a minute to laugh at your Rare comment. How are you enjoying "Grabbed by Ghoulies"? I think that's all they have put out since Nintendo sold them haha.. Most of the original staff responsible for Goldeneye or Perfect Dark are long gone from that company anyways. Perfect Dark 0 is a joke from everything I've read. Besides which, the thing was supposed to be for Xbox. You'll be lucky if that's the only Rare title you see on 360.
Golden Eye was the only RARE title I played on N64, and I played the hell out of it. I'd be happy with just one top teir title like that, and I've certainly not seen anything indicating otherwise.
Quote:
You are entitled to your opinions about which system you like, but don't be condescending to anyone who happens to like Nintendo franchises just because you don't.
Who said I don't? Jeepers, I have a
GBA, N64, and Gamecube and I love the Zelda, Metriod, and Mario Kart titles. Problem is, that is just about all they have and they keep rehashing them with each system since the NES days.
Quote:
Hell, did you even do research on the Revolution before you came here? You havn't once mentioned any of the announced features, even negatively. You just said, "Oh, no HD support.. it will fail." Whatever. I am done posting here because I am sick of these pointless arguements.
So what great announced features are there? Nothing exciting that I've heard. Revolutions failing will not be simply because of the HD support, but Nintendo's clear choice to once again not embracing the bleeding edge of technology like Sony and Microsoft and take the safe route, like they did with the N64 and Gamecube... and being the last out of the gate with the weakest system will kill them.
Quote:
P.S. - as far as the "lonely disenfranchised fanboy" support comment, this is really the only forum where I have not seen a general interest in Revolution, and this is coming from forums that usually support PS2/Xbox stuff.
It's happening everywhere. I hear from all kinds of people (friends, family, drunken hobos) talking about how they can't wait for the PS3 or Xbox 360, but I have never once been approached by anyone telling me how they can't wait for a Revelution system.

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folder icon   06-20-2005, 11:57 AM
Post #52
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Geez guys. Just wait 'til a month before release, atleast.

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folder icon   06-20-2005, 01:53 PM
Post #53
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1) I said it before i'll say it again Sega and the SNES finished about dead even no one system did that much better than the other one so stop arguing over a mute point in the end the race was a tie deal with it.

2)ya'll seriously underestimate some of the Gamecube games here are a few of the games that sold pretty well:

Metroid Prime 1 & 2
Pikmin
Mario Sunshine
Zelda:windwaker
Super Smash Brothers Melee
Paper Mario 2
Rogue leader
Resident evil 4
MarioKart DD

those are a few right there so don't say that Gamecube didn't have any good games cuz if you ask me they had better games than the xbox did with the exception of Kotor and Halo and i personally like Metroid Prime about the same as halo.

yeah Nintendo has screwed up quite a bit through the years (namely with the loss of Square and the CD-i screw up) but notice where Sega screwed up like this and disappeared Nintendo is still around.

Im not even paying attention to perfect dark 0 as someone else mentioned most of the orginal staff is gone which makes a huge difference and what happens to all FPS games that come out now they get compared to Halo and just can't compete. Xbox will be undone by their own creation.

Nintendo will be in the running if that online capabiliity is free cuz I think SSMB will do for nintendo online what Halo did for xbox live.

As Ive said before nintendo isn't trying to be the #1 system they are hoping that people who go out and buy a 360 or ps3 for all that money and all those features will sooner or later get tired of the console and start eyeing one of the others and that the nice price tag the revolution has will sway them to buy it instead of the other more expensive system which I think is a risky idea but will probably work as I don't know that many people who have both a xbox and a PS2.

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folder icon   06-20-2005, 03:32 PM
Post #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris
1080 Avalanche old, from N64
Advance Wars old, from GBA, but probably will be a good game
Animal Crossing old, from n64, but apparently fun
Fire Emblem (actually an old franchise, but new to the US)
Pikmin old, and never that good anyways


None of those are from N64, though Animal Crossing (Animal Forest) did come out for N64 in japan only and 1080 Snowboarding was on N64 but the franchise is not "from the SNES days" like you claim all of them are. Advance Wars is actually pretty new. It started on GBA but there is at least one title for GameCube now. And something tells me you've never even played Pikmin.

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folder icon   06-20-2005, 04:09 PM
Post #55
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Nintendo has always been pretty crazy with their controller. Every time they release a new system it gets a major overhaul. They achieved near-perfection with the SNES(perfection being a dual-shock controller), but then they had to get crazy with the N64 and the GC. I heard the Revolution may feature a stress ball-like squeeze pad and some other weird shit. It's about time. If I only had a nickle for every time I played a game and thought, "Man, if I only had some sort of squeeze mechanism..." I give them due credit for trying, at least they're attempting to think outside the box, but if they create something too ugly or clumsy, it's gonna hurt them.

Playstation, on the other hand, will come standard with wireless controllers.

As far as games go, go take a stroll through EB. You've got the long wall devoted to PS2, a smaller wall for the X-box, and then the GC area is tucked away in the corner. Even if it has great games, apparently tucked away behind the kiddy crap somewhere, because I've never seen any, how long can you play the same ones over and over? As they say, variety is the spice of life.

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folder icon   06-20-2005, 07:55 PM
Post #56
Kris

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If your only inovation is the controller, then you are lost.

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folder icon   06-20-2005, 08:23 PM
Post #57
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Well, an innovative controller can lead to innovative games, or make existing games more of a joy to play. But you have to balance the distinguishing characteristics with functionality and intuitiveness. If it's too radical, you might be limiting the types of games that are even playable on your system. I found that the lack of a (decent) D-pad discouraged me from playing fighting games(GC). With the X-box, I'd keep forgetting that the black and white buttons were even there(same thing with the Z button for GC, now that I think about it). While people might not fawn over a good controller, they tend to notice it when it stinks.

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folder icon   06-20-2005, 08:36 PM
Post #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IKickPuppies
Well, an innovative controller can lead to innovative games, or make existing games more of a joy to play. But you have to balance the distinguishing characteristics with functionality and intuitiveness. If it's too radical, you might be limiting the types of games that are even playable on your system. I found that the lack of a (decent) D-pad discouraged me from playing fighting games(GC). With the X-box, I'd keep forgetting that the black and white buttons were even there(same thing with the Z button for GC, now that I think about it). While people might not fawn over a good controller, they tend to notice it when it stinks.

Z button on N64 controller = awesome
Z button on GC controller = same as an appendix in a human, no real use for it but it's there just because

I actually liked the black and white buttons on the xbox controller. They're useful because they allow for more controls in games. It does give your thumb a workout compared to the double pointer finger buttons on the PS controller, though.

For a game like GTA though the extra two buttons is nice.

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folder icon   06-20-2005, 10:44 PM
Post #59
Kris

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I believe the Z button on the gamecube was acctually a last minute addition, which is why it's so oddly placed. I didn't like the Black/white buttons myself either, they were out of the way and you forget about them.

If you want the best controller ever, look no further than the japaneese Sega Saturn controllers (released later in the US, though not initially with the Saturn). Best D-pad of any controller and the XYZ over ABC buttons just works for everything (I loath the Gamecube button placement). Runner up to this is the PS2 dual shock, which I use for my PC gaming needs.

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folder icon   06-21-2005, 04:57 PM
Post #60
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A good gamer is able to adapt to controllers no matter how bad they are so I don't really have a problem with any of the controllers all I need is about an hour to get used to them and im ready to go.

puppies you said a good game can only last so long but look at how Halo is keeping xbox afloat a good game can last quite a while depending on the features and replayability the game has.

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folder icon   06-22-2005, 12:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.J.
A good gamer is able to adapt to controllers no matter how bad they are so I don't really have a problem with any of the controllers all I need is about an hour to get used to them and im ready to go.

puppies you said a good game can only last so long but look at how Halo is keeping xbox afloat a good game can last quite a while depending on the features and replayability the game has.


Sounds like something an idiot would say.

I like the Xbox controller except I think it's way too clunky and the white/black/start/select buttons are way the fuck out in BFE. Best button placement goes to PS2 in my book, same buttons just alot easier to reach. I've never played with whatever Kris raves about. N64 (Go play Mario Party, after a couple hours you'll have a white film on the inside of your joystick area... that's the skin that's getting rubbed off your hand*) and Gamecube (Whoever made this funky piece of shit should die.)

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folder icon   06-22-2005, 01:57 AM
Post #62
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FYI, if you are worried about the Revoluton's controller, it will also support GameCube controllers (no idea if this is only for downloadable content and gamecube backwards compatibility or not). And of course, if you don't like Gamecube's controller design there are plenty of 3rd party alternatives there as well I've even seen one designed very similar to the SNES controller.

Edit: BTW, I agree with you Jester on the Black and White Xbox buttons. I couldn't stand their placement either. I have not tried the controller S though, maybe that one is better.

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folder icon   06-22-2005, 09:30 AM
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Kegel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warlock
Edit: BTW, I agree with you Jester on the Black and White Xbox buttons. I couldn't stand their placement either. I have not tried the controller S though, maybe that one is better.

Oh on the giant xbox controllers the black and white buttons are definitely out in left field, but on the controller S they put them in a better spot that's much easier to reach.

KJ: If your marketing strategy is to target "good gamers" then good luck pleasing the other 99% of the gaming market.

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folder icon   06-22-2005, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.J.
A good gamer is able to adapt to controllers no matter how bad they are so I don't really have a problem with any of the controllers all I need is about an hour to get used to them and im ready to go.
Just because you can use a controller, doesn't mean it's a good controller and isn't frustrating to use.
Quote:
puppies you said a good game can only last so long but look at how Halo is keeping xbox afloat a good game can last quite a while depending on the features and replayability the game has.
Halo 2 is almost the only thing I play on my Xbox. The online aspect has just so much replayability... I would buy an Xbox even if it only played Halo 2.

Regarding the Xbox S controller... the black and white are better than on the origanal but still not in a good spot. Sega Saturn button placement is the way to go. The Start/Back are the worst placed buttons of them all, but aren't used too much either. You have to take your thumb off the controller/dpad to hit them, which to me is a big No-no.

I've never seen a good third party controller for a console. Ever. Nice that the Revolution can use GameCube controllers... I've got three of and buying multiple controllers for multiple systems gets expensive... I've already got 4 Xbox controllers, 3 Gamecube controllers, 3 Dreamcast controllers, and 4 N64 controllers. Figure that each costs at least $20 and that's approaching $300 worth of controllers. YiiiikEs!

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folder icon   06-22-2005, 04:45 PM
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I think my friend might've had the controller Kris mentioned. Was the d-pad on a plate, rather than being either a cross or four individual buttons? That's nice if you're trying to push a diagonal or trying to rotate, but every now and then you accidently push it diagonally when you were really trying to just push it to the right. A rare occurance, but it happened. I don't remember the rest of the placement, but I can't imagine anything beating a dual-shock's set up. Maybe if you slapped the same kind of d-pad on a dual-shock, we will have reached the promised land.

About the N64, the joysticks did wear out pretty quickly. I'm sure everyone remembers the 007 days when 1 of the 4 people playing had to use a semi-broken controller.

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folder icon   06-22-2005, 07:57 PM
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http://www.the-nextlevel.com/featur...tal-controller/

This is the controller I was talking about_:

(top one obviously)

I have been considering getting it for older emulated games (i.e. Zelda Collection which has both of the NES Zeldas on it.. Zelda 2 is a bitch to play on both the analog stick and that tiny d-pad). I sorta decided against it since GameCube's life was almost over but then since I heard Revolution supports GameCube controllers I have been rethinking that Esp. since Revolution can play pretty much any NES/SNES game ever released (depending on what is made available for download of course).

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folder icon   06-22-2005, 09:04 PM
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~Ahem~

Nintendo is working on Kid Icarus for the Revolution. I'm fucking sold on the sheer thought of that alone.

Oh yeah.

Fuck Halo, that shit blows. How a company can come from making awesome games, like Marathon or Myth for the Mac, of all things, and sell out on some shit ass franchise like Halo... peh. Needless to say, I won't be buying a 360, I already have a PC tower.

I won't be buying a Sony, same reason I didn't buy the previous. A clear lack of titles that interest me.

I will be buying a Revolution, most likely. That is, unless I get the hell out of this consumer culture we all live in. Fuck HDTV, fuck multiple systems... Hell, why do I even want one of these...

Truth be told, I like the Nintendo franchises. They set the standards long ago, and continue to do so today. Directional button pad? Nintendo. Analog joystick? Nintendo. Top side buttons? Nintendo. Popular franchised characters? Nintendo. Platforming genre? Nintendo. Wireless controllers? Nintendo. Four player games? Nintendo... The list really can go on. Hell, even things that they get scolded for, like GBA-GCN connectivity, still get incorporated by future systems. Watch Sony make the PSP connect to the PS3 for extra features... hell, watch them make a PS3 connect to other PS3s for more fucking features.

And that's what it comes down to, boys. One of these systems will spark nostalgia. One of these systems will offer great first party games. One of these systems won't sell out to the OMFG WE R TEH BEST settings.
I really hate how people suck up bullshit numbers and think: well clearly this systems more powerful, it has ten thousand gigafluxes! Who fucking cares?
One system, just one, will have my Zelda. Why bother getting the other two farces?

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folder icon   06-22-2005, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kegel


KJ: If your marketing strategy is to target "good gamers" then good luck pleasing the other 99% of the gaming market.


umm no all i have to do is put out a semi decent controller leave it to the 3rd party companies to come out with different controllers which TADA is exactly what they did. Companies aren't going to waste their time coming up with the "perfect controller" they have way to many ot her things to worry about.

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folder icon   06-23-2005, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jov
~Ahem~

Nintendo is working on Kid Icarus for the Revolution. I'm fucking sold on the sheer thought of that alone.


Yeah, it has been WAAAAAAAY too long. I can't wait for that one.

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folder icon   06-23-2005, 11:00 AM
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Kegel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K.J.
umm no all i have to do is put out a semi decent controller leave it to the 3rd party companies to come out with different controllers which TADA is exactly what they did. Companies aren't going to waste their time coming up with the "perfect controller" they have way to many ot her things to worry about.

Well then apparently we disagree. Personally I see the sole interface between user and system as a pretty important step.

Think if they stopped making cars with steering wheels and made them all with joysticks. Any "good driver" could adapt, and they could always leave it to third parties to come up with nicer joysticks, but people will still be like "WTF?? ^^".

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