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The boycott of Danish wares and burning of flags.  Pages (3): « 1 [2] 3 »
folder icon   02-06-2006, 05:24 PM
Post #36
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We had a guy in our school who was an exchange student from an Islamic country (fun fact: There's more than one, but I can't remember all of them). In any case, this young lad had to leave school early on Friday so he could attend the lone mosque in town for prayer, and I believe some of his other prayer times fell throughout his lunch time, so he disappeared off to a room that the school provided for his use.

The point I'm trying to make is that for this young lad, prayer (and thus, religion) was an important part of his identity, a trait shared with the rest of the Muslim world. You can say "Tolerance this, Tolerance that", but as long as the rest of you are laughing out of the other side of your mouth about how "Religion is trash", there's no tolerance, because there's no acceptance of the difference of values between the west and east.

Religion is an important part of the Muslim psyche. That's why we're referring to "Muslims" instead of "Syrians, Palestinians, etc". They're united as a political force by the meaning that their religion has for them. With this in mind, its almost surprising that the supposedly worldly newspapers would want to make up those cartoons.

Oh yeah, do Muslims value Free Speech?

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folder icon   02-06-2006, 06:44 PM
Post #37
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Muslims value free speech, but like i said its not an entitlement to plain bashing. You can criticize someone, you can say link islam with terrorism, as many have done before and lo no gigantic protests. So B~e, how do you answer to that? You can talk about how they *seem* to be hypocritical, yet there has never been a very large reaction to normal "Islam causes terrorism" comments by political figures. The large reaction is caused by the giganto slap in the face insult of their religion.

For an atheist, agnostic or any other westerner, they would not care or understand one bit about how a muslim might be offended. You talk about freedoms, yet you're hurting people. It's just feeding the image of Christian West and Muslim ... Middle? The newspapers that are reprinting the cartoons arent helping, and the crazy guys burning embassies arent helping. I don't see any moral high ground from defending the "freedom of speech". I mean, there's KKK in Canada, but you dont see them publishing shit (the stuff they do print is made to look moderate to pass the censorships), why? Because crazy oppressive Canada restricts the right of expression.

There's no point in so-called freedoms if you're just free to bash each other to the point of violence.

EDIT: Oh i just thought of a good example... lets say i walk up to a woman and said something like
"Hey you know what wife stands for? Washing, ironing, f-"
*WHAM* i get hit in the face

So unexpected! Where's my freedom of expression?


EDIT: Oh hey, and while im at it, B~E, about the hypocracy thing

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_reed/20060206.html

Quote:
There's an ironic and telling footnote to the "freedom of the press" issue that westerners seem to feel is at the heart of this whole matter. It involves the same Danish paper. It seems that, back in 2003, Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler submitted cartoons that lampooned Jesus. The paper refused to publish them and here's how the editor explained his decision:

"I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore I will not use them" Maybe Shakespeare applies – at least on this point – when he wrote, "there is something rotten in the state of Denmark."

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folder icon   02-06-2006, 10:31 PM
Post #38
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The sad thing about this incident is that it shouldn't have ever been a big deal, and it's disgusting that a few people turned it into a big deal - I mean the pictures were published months ago, and you know it was just one or two assholes all the way down in Gaza who stumbled on them and had to show everyone around them.

Plus, who get's all upset over a cartoon?

I read some comments from Time. The editors of that Danish paper said the cartoons were not meant to represent anyone but terrorists and extremists, and they did in fact apologize profusely. The best arguments against them were that they were seen as racist. I could see there being an argument against racist literature being published in a widely marketed magazine, if it really creates an environment of fear and oppresion, but I don't see that happening here either.

Like if Time were to put a picture of Klansmen on their cover with a bright burning cross, with the title "The South Shall Rise Again" and some crap like that, followed by racist cartoons of blacks, I would object too.

The thing is, even then, I don't see a problem with the legality of it. There's so many other ways for it to be checked that it's not worth fiddling with laws - and the government should take no blame whatsoever. Honestly, people with subscriptions are free to unsubscribe. Angry owners can fire editors - that happened to a head editor in France who published those same cartoons.

I can understand that to people in Gaza their religion is precious to them. Their parents taught it to them. Their parents told them how important it is. Their people were persecuted and killed just for the right to live their, and were punished in part for their beliefs. I can understand them seeing these pictures as an insult, a personal one, to their god, their parents, children, people, all that shit. I can understand, I can sympathize, and I'm sure if I met some of these people, I'd find reasons to respect them and their culture. Everyone's got something respectable about them.

But at some point, these knuckleheads have to realize that the pictures weren't meant as an insult to them, or their religion, or any other BS. It wasn't meant to insult anyone but the terrorists, which no one with any conscience should sympathize with anyway. And since they weren't meant as an insult, they shouldn't be insulted. The pics weren't supposed to represent all muslims, so they're not racist. And you can't use that as an excuse to burn a building! Honestly, they were lucky to have a Danish embassy there - now where will the poor saps go to get a passport out of their hellish existence?

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folder icon   02-07-2006, 09:02 AM
Post #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urin_BloodfaceII
And I have almost been hoping for this ... we have been more united as a people , were suddenly all interested inn politics and the leftis are shutting up.

I hope you realise the the "leftis" of which you speak are just a different shade of neoliberals. There hasn't been any real left wing presence in mainstream European politics for decades, even if the European public tends to lean towards left wing attitudes.

I mean come on, they want to build ties with China; a country that has defouled and excreted all over communist theory.

I wonder when the world will realise communism and nationalism are two different, often contradictory, things?

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folder icon   02-07-2006, 09:02 AM
Post #40
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Pardon me for asking, but why the heck do you people bother discussing this without having any proper knowledge of the incident?

Of course you can make this sound as if it is our, their, his or her fault if you don't bother taking all the information into context.

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folder icon   02-07-2006, 09:21 AM
Post #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aardwark
Pardon me for asking, but why the heck do you people bother discussing this without having any proper knowledge of the incident?

Of course you can make this sound as if it is our, their, his or her fault if you don't bother taking all the information into context.


Citation needed.

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folder icon   02-07-2006, 09:51 AM
Post #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aardwark
Pardon me for asking, but why the heck do you people bother discussing this without having any proper knowledge of the incident?

Of course you can make this sound as if it is our, their, his or her fault if you don't bother taking all the information into context.


is it possible to get all the information ... no it is not. Especially with a global and at the same time so vastly individual subject that this is. We discuss, not to "win" the discuission or be the best one to " foresee " the upcoming results but indeed try to get more knowledge about the conflict , not by just reading the news but mingle opinions from "Grunt" and eastward to "Jottu".

And what do you mean by proper knowledge? What we get in the news , or what some middleeast know it all wannabees predict ? and as said is proper knowledge even possible ?

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folder icon   02-07-2006, 11:13 AM
Post #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urin_BloodfaceII
is it possible to get all the information ... no it is not. Especially with a global and at the same time so vastly individual subject that this is. We discuss, not to "win" the discuission or be the best one to " foresee " the upcoming results but indeed try to get more knowledge about the conflict , not by just reading the news but mingle opinions from "Grunt" and eastward to "Jottu".

And what do you mean by proper knowledge? What we get in the news , or what some middleeast know it all wannabees predict ? and as said is proper knowledge even possible ?

By proper knowledge I mean not argueing the cause of it all without knowing what the cause of it all is, giving an opinion based on knowledge that you don't have. I can't remember who but someone said that the cause of it all was that someone in GAZA accidently stumbled upon them, this is not the truth, what happened was that some of the Danish Imams who saw the pictures in Jyllands Posten went down to several middle eastern countries in protest to show the pictures (and a few that weren't made by JP but by some random photo shop user, but the Imams forgot to mention that), the Imams also said that Denmark was going to re write the Koran among other things that would be very nasty (if they happened to be true and not something the Imams thought up to add fuel to the fire).

I didn't mean ALL information, I meant all the information released to the public.

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folder icon   02-07-2006, 02:54 PM
Post #44
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Urin, you have laws that restrict rascist and sexist remarks? Gee, we have the FCC, but no such laws exist here in the U.S. because it hinders people's right to free speech. I mean, if we couldn't poke fun at people because of their race, gender, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, or country of origin, that would be HORRIBLE!

But anyways, this really isn't a freedom of speech issue, it's a stupidity issue. Freedom of speech is working just fine here, it's the stupid people who are causing problems, and in this case, the stupid people are the Muslims. Normally it's the Christians, but this time it's the Muslims.

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folder icon   02-07-2006, 05:23 PM
Post #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aardwark
By proper knowledge I mean not argueing the cause of it all without knowing what the cause of it all is, giving an opinion based on knowledge that you don't have. I can't remember who but someone said that the cause of it all was that someone in GAZA accidently stumbled upon them, this is not the truth, what happened was that some of the Danish Imams who saw the pictures in Jyllands Posten went down to several middle eastern countries in protest to show the pictures (and a few that weren't made by JP but by some random photo shop user, but the Imams forgot to mention that), the Imams also said that Denmark was going to re write the Koran among other things that would be very nasty (if they happened to be true and not something the Imams thought up to add fuel to the fire).

I didn't mean ALL information, I meant all the information released to the public.

If people were to abstain from discussion because they dont know all the facts, there would be awfully few argumentations. And as we all know, arguments, debates and disagreements are the main weapons in keeping ignorance at bay!

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folder icon   02-07-2006, 05:26 PM
Post #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K0d0
If people were to abstain from discussion because they dont know all the facts, there would be awfully few argumentations. And as we all know, arguments, debates and disagreements are the main weapons in keeping ignorance at bay!

precisely!

And yeah we got laws about it, the most shameful thing that happened was that the Political party " White voters alliance " ( Hvit/kvit valgallianse ) , which is a racist party in Norway, had a racist party program. They were not alowed to do so and had to pull back the brosejoures (sp? plz tell me) and had to pay a big fine a top of the money lost by making the papmlets ( if thats a adekvate word).

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folder icon   02-07-2006, 06:40 PM
Post #47
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Im of the opinion that those newspaper printing those cartoons and reprinting them, inflamming the issue, are just not understanding the situation.

They think its some freedom of speech issue, but its hardly freedom of speech to muslims. All they see is the West belittling them again, ridiculing their culture and making another grand insult. They connect these things to everything else they dont like about the West. USA's invasion of Iraq and (lesser so) Afghanistan. The apparent daily bashing of Islam... etc

What you want are for the two peoples to talk. Everyone is just saying the other is flat wrong and condemning them. It's not going to go anywhere.

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folder icon   02-08-2006, 05:05 AM
Post #48
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They also might be under the impression that if everyone else does it ... they will have to accept it =/

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folder icon   02-08-2006, 11:07 AM
Post #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K0d0
If people were to abstain from discussion because they dont know all the facts, there would be awfully few argumentations. And as we all know, arguments, debates and disagreements are the main weapons in keeping ignorance at bay!
Oh for crying out loud...

So just because someone saw a few seconds of a news broadcast they're allowed to give an opinion on the subject?

Theres a reason why they don't put alzheimer's suffering people in charge of remembering intelligence agency codes, because they don't have the capabilities to do it, and an exeedingly large majority of the worlds don't have the capabilities to discuss this incident. If you want to discuss something, at least your information on the subject correct.

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folder icon   02-08-2006, 12:14 PM
Post #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aardwark


So just because someone saw a few seconds of a news broadcast they're allowed to give an opinion on the subject?

That is exactly what i mean and I have explained why in the post you quoted. Discussion should always take place, as there is a greater chance that learning also takes place. Mind you, the result of an entire group of ignorants arguing with each other may lead to bad results, but most probably at least one person will switch opinion. That means that they will be more viable for changing stances later in future discussions with well-informed people, since that barrier has already been breached once before.
Quote:
If you want to discuss something, at least your information on the subject correct.
See the post you quoted for an explanation on how i see it.

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folder icon   02-08-2006, 08:40 PM
Post #51
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Aardvark, even the dumbest, most ignorant fucks have the right to spout off their opinions on anything they like.

You have the freedom to debate with them, ignore them, walk away from them, stop subscribing to their magazine, newspaper, etc. So does everyone else.

Because we all have this freedom, no one asshole can make us listen to them, and only people with solid reasoning and a calm, rational demeanor can ever hope to sway public opinion (except for clever, lying politicians).

Imagine if laws were set up your way. How would any government enforce it?

punitively? Anyone who states an opinion that is ignorant - i.e. it goes against the dominant viewpoint is arrested.

pre-emptively? People have to apply for a license to lecture, give speeches, sermons, or print a publication - which is decided based on how the state agrees with their views.

Or maybe, to keep the state from dominating people, there could be some sort of voting process why which various people elect the only people that are allowed to speak publicly or publish newspapers and books? Then everyone else gets arrested for doing it. The common people can only listen, and read what the elected write?

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folder icon   02-09-2006, 04:22 AM
Post #52
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You know, the Muslims can get pissed all they want, and to an extent they should, but let's keep in mind...


... Islamic states print cartoons and propaganda that make fun of Christians and non-Muslims everyday. They've been doing so for years. With Jews, they've gone beyond joking and have often called for their extermination, not such a nice thing to say about a people who just survived an extermination not too long ago.

So they can complain all they want, but they have to realize that the way they portray us in their media makes Islam look much worse than anything we put out. Shit, alot of us are convinced some of them are just plain crazy, and it doesn't help that alot of those crazy Muslims happen somehow happen to hold top offices in their countries.

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folder icon   02-09-2006, 07:10 AM
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Indeed ...


last thing i heard was that Danish and Norwegain extreme rightwings ( that would be neo nazies) have said they will burn the Koran if they do anything more bogus stuff. Which is kind of lame since Norwegians often use pages of the bible to roll cigarets or joints in if their out of rolling paper. Which in fact is much worse ... flag burning isnt all that bad. Thats the proper way of getting rid of a flag in Norway only you got to seperate all the colors with a sicsor (sp? ).


On a side note : I made my first joint last thursday, i got the good feeling of beeing a rebel ! didnt smoke it though ... smoking is bad Mmmmkay ?

Edit : damn i feel like a loser after writing that.

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folder icon   02-09-2006, 09:21 AM
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folder icon   02-09-2006, 11:24 AM
Post #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
Aardvark, even the dumbest, most ignorant fucks have the right to spout off their opinions on anything they like.

You have the freedom to debate with them, ignore them, walk away from them, stop subscribing to their magazine, newspaper, etc. So does everyone else.

Because we all have this freedom, no one asshole can make us listen to them, and only people with solid reasoning and a calm, rational demeanor can ever hope to sway public opinion (except for clever, lying politicians).

Imagine if laws were set up your way. How would any government enforce it?

punitively? Anyone who states an opinion that is ignorant - i.e. it goes against the dominant viewpoint is arrested.

pre-emptively? People have to apply for a license to lecture, give speeches, sermons, or print a publication - which is decided based on how the state agrees with their views.

Or maybe, to keep the state from dominating people, there could be some sort of voting process why which various people elect the only people that are allowed to speak publicly or publish newspapers and books? Then everyone else gets arrested for doing it. The common people can only listen, and read what the elected write?

Being ignorant means being misinformed or underinformed, so for those people to not be allowed in a discussion, I see no problem with, after all, that's something they can do something about, the information IS actually out there (if it wasn't then I could see it being a problem), giving an opinion based on nothing or on a lie is even worse than actually lying.

And I believe that it's only in America and dictatorships that you need a license to lecture, give speeches etc. (Because I know that this isn't so in Denmark).

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folder icon   02-09-2006, 12:04 PM
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The best part about this is that people act like Muslim idiots don't talk about (and even worse, make speeches about, make cartoons about, publish articles/books about) the West like we're Satanic devils who slaughter innocents in our backyards and are led around by the nose by evil capitalists who want to enslave the Earth.

We don't give a fuck when they say "KILL THE WESTERN DEVILS and THE HOLOCAUST WAS A LIE" in your speeches (by PRESIDENTS). Nobody should have to apologize for a joke no matter how offensive when it's taken utterly out of context by its audience.

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folder icon   02-09-2006, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urin_BloodfaceII
Indeed ...


last thing i heard was that Danish and Norwegain extreme rightwings ( that would be neo nazies) have said they will burn the Koran if they do anything more bogus stuff. Which is kind of lame since Norwegians often use pages of the bible to roll cigarets or joints in if their out of rolling paper. Which in fact is much worse ... flag burning isnt all that bad. Thats the proper way of getting rid of a flag in Norway only you got to seperate all the colors with a sicsor (sp? ).


On a side note : I made my first joint last thursday, i got the good feeling of beeing a rebel ! didnt smoke it though ... smoking is bad Mmmmkay ?

Edit : damn i feel like a loser after writing that.


In a world where cannabis use is so frequent and widespread, you should have felt more rebellious before you had rolled it.

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folder icon   02-09-2006, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwolf
The best part about this is that people act like Muslim idiots don't talk about (and even worse, make speeches about, make cartoons about, publish articles/books about) the West like we're Satanic devils who slaughter innocents in our backyards and are led around by the nose by evil capitalists who want to enslave the Earth.

We don't give a fuck when they say "KILL THE WESTERN DEVILS and THE HOLOCAUST WAS A LIE" in your speeches (by PRESIDENTS). Nobody should have to apologize for a joke no matter how offensive when it's taken utterly out of context by its audience.


We don't give a fuck? I remember the entire west and the UN condemning the Iranian president's remarks multiple times. We just dont go gun crazy.

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folder icon   02-09-2006, 06:39 PM
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And thats the only ting they lissten to. So were always beeing rammed from behind and donkey punshed.

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folder icon   02-10-2006, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk
We don't give a fuck? I remember the entire west and the UN condemning the Iranian president's remarks multiple times. We just dont go gun crazy.
We don't react in this manner; is my point.

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folder icon   02-10-2006, 06:28 PM
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http://leninology.blogspot.com/2006...ctness-and.html

really interesting postrelated to this cartoon and issues of "free speech." I think he's pretty much right on when he says that free speech is basically a footnoted term where the footnote reads "only for whites/westerners/privileged/etc." And substantiated by examples where whites/westerners/privileged peeps can run their mouths about blacks/arabs/muslims and say it's free speech, but as soon as someone that we'd categorize as Other says something... well, look out.

edit: also, to those saying "well WE don't react like that." Yes, well, we haven't been oppressed and hated on by global superpowers for years either.

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2006...-enjoyment.html

that article is more on the cartoon. the whole idea of "gaslighting" is really interesting too. so is the fact that the cartoon and the publishers/entire western reaction has been a double slap of racism. first the racist cartoon, then the patronizing articles basically telling muslim people how they're allowed to react. yikes.

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folder icon   02-10-2006, 08:33 PM
Post #62
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Aardvark, you need to just edit your view to this:

People who are underinformed are not allowed to enter debate with me or I'll just end it and leave.

It's perfectly fine for you to say that, just not that everyone should not be allowed to speak without your special permission - like the whole world needs to apply for licenses to talk from Aardvark.

As for this forum, you can either talk to us, debate with us, or get fed up and declare you're through with various threads - maybe even the forum itself. But you can't tell us to leave or to shut up.

State your arguments, present them, and then leave others to present theirs....

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folder icon   02-11-2006, 04:50 AM
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I just realized, how do they know that the charicatures are supposed to be of Mohammed?

I mean, it is illegal for them to depikt him and has been so for well over a thousand years, how do they recognise those cartoons as him?
Can't it just be some random guy with a beard and turban?

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folder icon   02-11-2006, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
Aardvark, you need to just edit your view to this:

People who are underinformed are not allowed to enter debate with me or I'll just end it and leave.

It's perfectly fine for you to say that, just not that everyone should not be allowed to speak without your special permission - like the whole world needs to apply for licenses to talk from Aardvark.

As for this forum, you can either talk to us, debate with us, or get fed up and declare you're through with various threads - maybe even the forum itself. But you can't tell us to leave or to shut up.

State your arguments, present them, and then leave others to present theirs....

Maybe I've formulated myself incorrectly, what I meant was that I, personally, get very pissed off when people debate something that they are (hugely) underinformed about, not everyone in this thread has given their opinion based on little insight concerning the event, but a lot have, I just wrote what I wrote to make people dig deeper into the case before judging it.

Oh and, my name is Aardwark (with a 'W'), not Aardvark

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folder icon   02-11-2006, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by .uber
http://leninology.blogspot.com/2006...ctness-and.html

really interesting postrelated to this cartoon and issues of "free speech." I think he's pretty much right on when he says that free speech is basically a footnoted term where the footnote reads "only for whites/westerners/privileged/etc." And substantiated by examples where whites/westerners/privileged peeps can run their mouths about blacks/arabs/muslims and say it's free speech, but as soon as someone that we'd categorize as Other says something... well, look out.

edit: also, to those saying "well WE don't react like that." Yes, well, we haven't been oppressed and hated on by global superpowers for years either.

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2006...-enjoyment.html

that article is more on the cartoon. the whole idea of "gaslighting" is really interesting too. so is the fact that the cartoon and the publishers/entire western reaction has been a double slap of racism. first the racist cartoon, then the patronizing articles basically telling muslim people how they're allowed to react. yikes.


Oh give me a break, the Muslim countries have been oppressed by their own leaders more than anyone else. They just use the U.S. and the west to vent out their anger, we didn't do shit to them. Yes, the Brits and French held mandates over their countries for awhile, but there weren't any genocidal purges or bloody wars then either, and no religious oppression. And before the Brits it was the Ottoman Empire, and they were much worse. Since then they've had over 50 years of freedom to do whatever they will with their future, and it's been wasted on oppressive dictatorships and military excess.

And you know, is too much to ask to react nonviolently for once? I don't think it's a misunderstanding on the paper's part, it's a misunderstanding on the Muslim's part.

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folder icon   02-11-2006, 03:08 PM
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Actually Gaggin, we did do shit to them, but their leaders are still using it to vent anger away from them, as they are in deed the worst oppressors of their people.

At least in Iran.

The funny thing about Iran. We deposed their secular leader when he tried to make the west pay more for oil - resulting in the rise of the fundamentalists who replaced him. They should be thanking the west!

Where's the cartoon of Allah and Uncle Sam walking hand in hand?

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folder icon   02-11-2006, 04:17 PM
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Didn't do shit to them?!

See, this is why it's impossible to have an argument with so many right wing Americans, they just blatantly ignore FACTUAL HISTORY. What about the fucking IRAN CONTRA AFFAIR?! What about the FUNDING OF SADDAM? Or of Al-Queida for fucks sake?!

What an IMBOCILE.

That's not to say that you're not right about the fact that the Muslim world has been oppressed by it's leaders a great deal. Like all regions of the world, where there has been economic growth, there has been class oppression. But that's beside the point.

I see what you're getting at here though, in your simple minded little bigotted way. The Western world simply would not react like this. There is no denying that, and many Islamic countries do have horrendous human rights records and do not honor freedom of speech or even basic civil rights.

Why?

Well, isn't it obvious? Religion! Be it Christianity, Islam or whatever, no matter how many coincedental benefits religion may have, it's impierliast nature inevitably leads to this kind of behaviour.

Europe had the reneissance, and a series of left wing revolutions that reshaped the politicals of the continent from religious monarchies to secular republics. America was founded on this deology, even if it is beggining to digress.

The fact is, the Islamic world never had a renaissance. Athiesm and secular philosophy has left most Islamic countries almost untouched.

I mean, I have many Muslim friends and all the respect for the Muslims of the world, but I'll be honest, the relationship between religion and politics in much of the Islamic world is practically stone aged.

But then, they were tasteless cartoons, with no pupose other than to provoke anger, and in no way reflect the true teachings of Islam. But their stupidity PALES in comparison to the downright heinous behaviour of many protesters.

To any of those protesters who might be reading, whom I predict there to be none, what do you make of this Iranian cartoon?

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folder icon   02-11-2006, 04:38 PM
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Hey, that guys left chest hair looks kind of like a swasticka!

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folder icon   02-11-2006, 05:23 PM
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to tack on some more to the responses to "we haven't done shit to them"

Granted there are many MANY things we have done in the past, but I think the biggest on-going slap in the face to the muslim world is our unabashed support of Israel (such a touchy subject that I will say no more on it).

As far as religion being the reason the muslim world has reacted violently, that may be a contributing factor (after all, they are reacting about a cartoon depicting their religious figure), but I don't think that's it. After all, it's not like once the Rennisance and Enlightment happened the West no longer had conflicts - the two biggest wars were fought over nationalism, not religion. It's almost like there's this space in human beings that needs to be filled with something whether it's religious fervor, cultural spirit, or nationalism.

Anyway, it's also not like the West (and by the West right now I mean the United States) has any legitimacy as a moral authority that can tell peoples, nations, etc. how to act. We sponsored state terrorism throughout the 20th century and continue to do so (we enlisted Pakistan's help in Afghanistan and simply looked to the other way in their terrorist activities against India). We have our own gigantic list of human rights abuses (Jose Padilla case is perhaps the most visible current one), and we don't even have to get into the civil rights history stuff with women, african americans, and now gay men and women.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no America-hater. I think this country has stood and can stand for incredible things, but it's just the hypocracy that kills me.

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folder icon   02-11-2006, 05:46 PM
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However, nationalism can be made like religion by a strong person. There's not that much difference between believing in your führer and believing in a prophet/other religious leader. (Yes, there is a difference between their backgrounds, but both can lead 'their' people right into a lot of bloodshed)

Religion is to blame, as well as nationalism and the stubborn believe of almost all my fellow human beings that the human race is divided in other races and that those 'races' should stick together. Chauvinism makes me sick, patriotism deserves bashing and nationalism shouldn't come near me, risking being justly blamed for (almost) everything.

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