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folder icon   09-20-2010, 08:05 PM
Fighterjets Post #1
Ultra_punk

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So I wonder if any of you are military buffs.

Canadian conservative government intends to make a no-bid contract of 9 billion CAD to Lockheed Martin for the new F-35 Lightning 2. There's been a furor over this in Canadian politics, ranging from wasting our money on planes we don't need to the fact that there was no bidding process for the contract, breaking Canadian tradition (for those not in the know, our political process is half-written law and half-unwritten traditions).

Now the F-35 Lightning 2 has an estimated cost of 191 million USD.

Canada currently uses the CF-18 Hornet, cost of around 30 million USD (flyaway cost in 1977, in today's dollars).

So I want to ask you guys, is the F-35 worth anywhere near its cost per unit of 191 million USD?

I've seen a lot of reports from independent combat simulation guys that the Su-27/Su-30 and other 4th generation fighterjets can handily defeat the F-35 with a simple application of basic tactics. The only way they lose 4-1 against the F-35 is in direct aerial combat but since they cost 6x the amount as Su-27 then it seems that it isn't even better enough.

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folder icon   09-21-2010, 01:03 AM
Post #2
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I guess it's all a question of how much you fear Russia. Or China. Considering you're right next to America, you could just cut all your defense budget, and rely on the US to save your asses in a war.

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folder icon   09-21-2010, 06:01 PM
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Well, for 191 million you could pay 3,820 teachers to educate 573,000 students for a year. Or buy that 1 jet. So you tell me if its worth it or not.

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folder icon   09-21-2010, 06:47 PM
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They should buy Swedish.

The maintenance cost of Gripen are almost a tenth to that of most competitors, to say nothing of the initial cost.

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folder icon   09-22-2010, 12:32 AM
Post #5
Ultra_punk

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Quote:
Originally Posted by the12thman
Well, for 191 million you could pay 3,820 teachers to educate 573,000 students for a year. Or buy that 1 jet. So you tell me if its worth it or not.

True enough, so it depends if i want to rationalize away all military spending. Our air force is already at the minimum size. We only got heavy lift capacity recently and not everyone agreed on that decision but it's nearly impossible due to patriotism arguments to shoot down a military purchase these days. Apparently it's uncanadian to question military spending.

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folder icon   09-22-2010, 09:36 PM
Post #6
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I'm just saying that one aircraft cannot be worth that much when you can purchase so much education (which arguably could help to negate the need of military spending altogether) for the same price.

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folder icon   09-23-2010, 12:15 AM
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Educating YOUR people isn't going to affect the need for military spending at all. It's the OTHER countries' people that count. I don't think it's gonna be so easy to educate everybody else, though.

My concern is the apparent inferiority of the F-35 according to the simulation people you referenced, Ultra. If they cost 6x as much as a plane they can only beat in 4-1 odds, that's pretty awful. Since an equal force of the other plane would outnumber them 6-1, it's unbelievably unlikely they could ever get odds to win. Even if you have better pilots, if there's really that much of a disadvantage, it wouldn't matter. Sounds awfully expensive for a plane that's not as good as it should be.

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folder icon   09-23-2010, 01:40 AM
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It's pretty rediculous to spend that much money on something that will rarely get put to use. If this money has to be spent on the military, we should spend it on canadian flag blankets and maple syrup to give away to other countries for free. Then no one would have reason to attack us.



Fuck, I'm turning into a hippie.

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folder icon   09-23-2010, 09:15 AM
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If you gave me a canadian flag blanket I think I'd wanna attack you more.

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folder icon   09-23-2010, 10:08 AM
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Give the blankets to your homeless people but bring on the maple syrup! I love that stuff! I promise not to attack you if you keep me supplied with free to very inexpensive maple syrup...

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folder icon   09-23-2010, 05:18 PM
Post #11
the12thman

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More syrup! And PB, I never specified who to educate, just said that's how much you get for 191 milli

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folder icon   09-24-2010, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Planet_Buster
My concern is the apparent inferiority of the F-35 according to the simulation people you referenced, Ultra. If they cost 6x as much as a plane they can only beat in 4-1 odds, that's pretty awful. Since an equal force of the other plane would outnumber them 6-1, it's unbelievably unlikely they could ever get odds to win. Even if you have better pilots, if there's really that much of a disadvantage, it wouldn't matter. Sounds awfully expensive for a plane that's not as good as it should be.

this. probably a matter of lobbying and catering to financial gains.

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folder icon   09-24-2010, 01:37 PM
Post #13
Ultra_punk

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grom-Hellscream
this. probably a matter of lobbying and catering to financial gains.

Probably is an understatement.

I just don't get why our Prime Minister has to support the American industrial-complex. Is he Canadian or is he not?

You know if we started dumping cheap maple syrup to everyone. Everyone would get addicted and then we would use this to take over the world.

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folder icon   09-24-2010, 03:18 PM
Post #14
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Israel is also purchasing a whole bunch of those jets. Ironically, it causes a turmoil here too, as in why pour all this money on planes that has no advantage when you look at is worth.

I'm guessing though that the Israeli Air Industry, when they get hold of them, will strip them down to pieces and put them back up packed with gadgets and goodies that nobody knows about. Still, they can do it with cheaper planes too.

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folder icon   09-24-2010, 08:19 PM
Post #15
Ultra_punk

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeGee
Israel is also purchasing a whole bunch of those jets. Ironically, it causes a turmoil here too, as in why pour all this money on planes that has no advantage when you look at is worth.

I'm guessing though that the Israeli Air Industry, when they get hold of them, will strip them down to pieces and put them back up packed with gadgets and goodies that nobody knows about. Still, they can do it with cheaper planes too.


I wouldn't say its ironic since I believe Israel actually knows what is good hardware. It is causing a turmoil there probably because it sucks. What are you guys ever going to use F-35 for anyways? So many better jets israel can get.

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folder icon   09-25-2010, 11:37 AM
Post #16
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I thought it's ironic because both Canada and Israel are buying the same weaponry, and both have public outrage over it, but we're so distinctively different countries with different security neccessities. I know I don't have a strong irony sense

We're getting these jets mainly because we're the USA's bitch. Every year they give us 'military financial aid'. So instead of getting money to buy well-suited weapons, we forgo the money and get the jets instead.

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folder icon   09-26-2010, 02:01 PM
Post #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeGee
I thought it's ironic because both Canada and Israel are buying the same weaponry, and both have public outrage over it, but we're so distinctively different countries with different security neccessities. I know I don't have a strong irony sense

We're getting these jets mainly because we're the USA's bitch. Every year they give us 'military financial aid'. So instead of getting money to buy well-suited weapons, we forgo the money and get the jets instead.


Not a good sign of your national trend

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folder icon   09-26-2010, 02:34 PM
Post #18
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Well, it's not really a national trend. This is the costliest military deal in Israel's history, hence the uproar about it. Analysts claim it will bundle our military financial aid to the deal, so should the need rise for a different kind of weaponry, we'd be short a few. I don't know that much about it though.

Then again we'll have 20 brand new stealth jets. That way we can more easily bombard surrounding nations who secretly build nuclear reactors

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folder icon   09-26-2010, 03:02 PM
Post #19
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Well let's not get into that one again

What israel needs is more friends, not more weapons.

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