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folder icon   10-12-2010, 02:41 PM
Betrayed!! Post #1
Kjell Thusaud

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Micky Mouse on Crack

http://www.cheathappens.com/article_blizzardbans.asp

I knew achievements was a bad idea!

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folder icon   10-13-2010, 01:02 PM
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Planet_Buster

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Are these people serious? Players cheated in SC2 and are now offended that they got banned? It doesn't matter if it's single player or not--if Blizz wanted there to be single player cheats, they would have put cheat codes in like the old days, and you probably wouldn't have to log in to b.net to play the campaign. These people are retarded. I mean that literally.

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folder icon   10-13-2010, 01:41 PM
Post #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Planet_Buster
if Blizz wanted there to be single player cheats, they would have put cheat codes in like the old days

This is the most self-defeating argument ever.

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folder icon   10-14-2010, 02:03 AM
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I don't see how that's a self defeating argument. Blizzard doesn't want anyone to use cheats in this game, unlike some of their previous games. I'm with Planet Buster. Besides, these guys signed a pretty lengthy user agreement along with this thing. They have no legal right to their claim of money back for cheating in the game.

Gamer points are pretty stupid (I have 3200 myself) but they are still a community based reward system. His analogy is pretty dumb. “Would you buy a car if you knew that if you decided to switch out the factory stereo with a better, third party stereo, that someone would come and repossess your car in the middle of the night simply for doing so? It's a ridiculous proposition."

Of course that's a ridiculous proposition, but gamer points are rewards for doing Specific Actions. Rewards have a special place in law and we have to compare gamer points to other rewards.

If a boy scout cheats to earn a Boy Scout badge he can be thrown out of the boy scouts. Gamer points are like badges or stickers. They have no monetary value, rather they're worth exactly what it requires for an organization to give them to you. Can you forge a diploma? NO. Can you forge a military badge? NO. These things are SYMBOLS that carry no monetary value, they are worth the action that it took to get them. Cheating, forging, these actions rob others who earned them their rewards.

==============================

blizzard should just add a -10000 achievement for cheating. seems like it's easier to program than "reset that guy's achievements".

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folder icon   10-14-2010, 04:45 AM
Post #5
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It's a self-defeating argument because they DID put in Single Player cheat codes. Just type in terribleterribledamage or whysoserious.

To be fair, these do disable achievements, which is the way it should be. You don't get rewards for cheating. The sad thing is that these people cheated FOR the achievements.

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folder icon   10-14-2010, 03:09 PM
Post #6
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whysoserious is the best cheat name from blizzard ever.

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folder icon   10-14-2010, 08:45 PM
Post #7
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I believe this is about hacking, not putting in cheat codes.

In any case, they're only doing such a hammer drop because of money. If you have to buy the game again they earn more money. A more realistic solution would be a temporary ban that increases if you are discovered cheating again. I mean obviously a percentage of the players banned were completely innocent, no algorithm is 100% accurate even if a human makes the final judgement call.

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folder icon   10-14-2010, 11:21 PM
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I'm fine with them doing a temp ban instead of a permanent ban, but they could also, say, wipe all the achievements of anyone they ban. I'm all for achievements being a worthless epeen meter, but still, it's a thing amongst the community and certain achievements are like badges of honor, and anyone caught cheating should be punished for it.

Funderbunk: I was unaware there were SP cheats in SC2, though it's both pleasing and not altogether unsurprising. The point remains the same: the only cheating Blizz wants to happen in singleplayer or otherwise is the cheating they've programmed into the game, which of course disables achievements(as you've pointed out). So my argument remains fine on its own.

The real thing though is that this shouldn't be about achievements; it should be about the fact that hacking the game for your own benefit isn't something you should be doing. Sure, singleplayer hacks don't affect anyone but you, but it's the first step on the road to hacking multiplayer or other things that do affect the community, especially given things like achievements and leaderboards that are near-ubiquitous in today's games. Games are released the way they are because it's what the developers intended, and hacking it for your own purposes is an affront to them. If you want a different game, learn how to program your own and then do it.

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folder icon   10-15-2010, 01:12 AM
Post #9
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Well if you ban hacking in general then you are crapping on private property rights. After all you bought the game, you can do whatever you want to it. You just may not play on battle.net with it but they can't do anything but block you from playing on battle.net with your copy. Anything else is a breach of your basic rights to property.

Afterall, if you felt like screwing with a hairdryer you bought, up to you, though you void the warranty.

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dimitri583: i told you
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folder icon   10-16-2010, 09:41 AM
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I can't believe anyone would support blizzard banning people for single player hacking. What a bunch of tools.

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folder icon   10-17-2010, 05:23 AM
Post #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk
Well if you ban hacking in general then you are crapping on private property rights. After all you bought the game, you can do whatever you want to it. You just may not play on battle.net with it but they can't do anything but block you from playing on battle.net with your copy. Anything else is a breach of your basic rights to property.

Afterall, if you felt like screwing with a hairdryer you bought, up to you, though you void the warranty.

So then you agree that blizzard has the right to ban players from b.net? But they have no right to block the cd-key?

Also, you are buying the game, or are you buying the code?. If you are buying the game and the code remains the property of blizzard (I which is the impression that I alway got) then no you have no right what so ever to alter that code. Private property rights are all well and good, but they work both ways, also you have to know just what property you are talking about. I for one do not know, but if it was a breach then I assume some American some where will sue. They seem to enjoy suing, hell even if it is not a beach of the law then I assume some American will try any way.

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folder icon   10-17-2010, 01:39 PM
Post #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk
Well if you ban hacking in general then you are crapping on private property rights. After all you bought the game, you can do whatever you want to it. You just may not play on battle.net with it but they can't do anything but block you from playing on battle.net with your copy. Anything else is a breach of your basic rights to property.

Afterall, if you felt like screwing with a hairdryer you bought, up to you, though you void the warranty.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't SCII work so you're always playing on Battle.net? So that's kind of in-between there, isn't it?

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folder icon   10-19-2010, 06:12 PM
Post #13
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@funderbunk
Well, that's a whole DRM issue and I'm fairly anti-DRM. But I believe they intend to let you play offline, they just need to fix bugs associated with that. Steam had the same problem for a good year where hteir offline mode was essentially totally broken.

@sammy
You bought the game, thus you can do whatever you want with it on your personal computer. I'm not sure how that has anything to do with blizzard "owning code" whatever that means.

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Enix: Oops added an extra zero to it just like your hydro bill
CowUltrapunk: SLOW
CowUltrapunk: slow as your dick
dimitri583: i told you
dimitri583: my dick is fast as fuck
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folder icon   10-20-2010, 12:57 AM
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Legally Blizzard has every right to ban. It's not 100% cool but we do all understand that Blizzard has the rights legally, don't we?

In a competitive atmosphere games are allowed to be regulated to ensure that the game is fair. Cheating at a game isn't fair and this company has reserved the right to ban you if you cheat online. There's a grey area with achievements simply because they're gay but they still represent competitive play between players. We all agree that players should be banned if they cheat in online matches between players. Banning cheaters keeps the game fair. But achievements are still competitive trophies.

Anyone who walks into a court room complaining that they weren't allowed to break all the rules is going to get thrown out.


Sure, you own a game when you buy it. But an online competitive atmosphere means you're also dealing with other people's games, other people's purchases. Simply because you bought the game it does not mean that you can mess with OTHER people's games. By cheating you're ruining another player's experience, and Blizzard has every right to defend that.




That being said, if you want to tinker with the game's code you should unplug your internet cord and don't tell people about it. Battle Net has rules, it's allowed to have rules, and they looking at everybody on the damn grid. You're given a set number of parts to deal with in the online race that is Battle Net, you can use only those parts and if you don't use those specific parts you're breaking the rules. Unplug your ethernet if you must hack. Blizzard's covering their asses, they're not money grubbing. It's a new game and they don't want to put up with any bullshit. Honestly who's going to buy the game again after getting banned? I wouldn't, Fuck them.

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folder icon   10-20-2010, 11:11 AM
Post #15
Sammy the Saint

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If you buy SCII then you are buying the program, not the code. Thus you have little to no rights to 'hack' that code and change/manipulate it. Blizzard retains all rights to that code, thus they have a legal right to block your cd key if you fuck with their code. (It is the same with Windows) Or at least that is what I am lead to believe, similarly, if you 'hack' in to that code and use it for what ever reason even if it is for personal use. You are opening your self to a legal shit storm.

But yes if you want to fuck with the game, do it off line. If you do it online don't cry when you are told to go to hell. You have no right to mess with the code as you did not buy it, you bought the game. They are two different things. Legal.

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folder icon   10-20-2010, 06:23 PM
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You keep using that word a lot but I don't think it means what you think it means.

blizz can not haz teh codez.

You buy the program you can hack it. It's up to you. You're merely not allowed to use a hacked version on battle.net because blizzard is allowed to control what versions of software run on their servers. You can go ahead and run a personal server upon which you run your hacked copy on, so long as it's not for profit. There are a few other limitations, that exist only in America, with that.

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a suicide bomber taken out by a suicide bomber? priceless
Masey209: JUST MAKE HER HAVE SEX WITH ME!!
Enix: Oops added an extra zero to it just like your hydro bill
CowUltrapunk: SLOW
CowUltrapunk: slow as your dick
dimitri583: i told you
dimitri583: my dick is fast as fuck
CowUltrapunk: working on your unspeakable weapon of mass atrocities?
ZoraxP: Yep. I call it the USA.
Urin Bloodface: i know ontario
Urin Bloodface: ive even been to vancover
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folder icon   10-21-2010, 09:58 AM
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In a perfect world, sure. But that's not what the EULA you signed for SC2 says. You're just buying a license to run the game as is, with no modifications. You don't own the game, you own a license to play the game. As a bonus, the license to play the game came with a CD that contained the game you just paid for. That's what the agreement says. It's all well and good to argue from a position of "this is what I, as the consumer, want to believe is true", unless you want to be taken seriously, in which case you should pay attention to that window with the "Accept / Decline" button that you always skip through.

In conclusion, Firelord Ozai, YOU are the one who is not wearing any pants. Also, it doesn't mean what you think it means, either.

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folder icon   10-22-2010, 07:11 AM
Post #18
Sammy the Saint

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Bryndon's explanation is much better then mine. But it is the point that I am or was trying to get across. I know that when you buy windows or any OS, then Microsoft or el at almost always retain all rights to the code there of. You are not allow to copy, edit, or manipulate that code in anyway out side of the programs structure... I always thought that you were buying the program, hence the difference between 'the program' and 'the code'. The program being the execution of the code, but Bryndon's explanation that you are only buying a license to run that program make a lot more sense.

So the simple legal fact remains, no you have no right to 'hack' any program that you buy a license to run. Cry all you want about it.

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folder icon   10-22-2010, 06:11 PM
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Well, in this case, I misunderstood what you said but Bryndon has laid it out in a clear manner I can discuss.

Anyway, it depends on which country you are in. Many countries have already stated flatly that the EULA is worthless. In America it might work though, I am not sure. Canada it would not. Europe I would highly doubt it.

I would be against EULAs being legal in any case, since you did purchase the product, it doesn't make sense that you only get to lease the use of a product as-is... it sorta breaks how capitalism works.

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a suicide bomber taken out by a suicide bomber? priceless
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Enix: Oops added an extra zero to it just like your hydro bill
CowUltrapunk: SLOW
CowUltrapunk: slow as your dick
dimitri583: i told you
dimitri583: my dick is fast as fuck
CowUltrapunk: working on your unspeakable weapon of mass atrocities?
ZoraxP: Yep. I call it the USA.
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folder icon   10-23-2010, 07:55 AM
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Look, at the end of the day I do agree that we should be, or even are buying the product and thus should be able to alter it in any way we wish...

But it is a question of what that product is. If you buy a bottle of coke are you buying the recipe?. I think, although I dont know nor full under stand that the argument, is you are not. And further more the 'code' to the game is like a recipe so you are, or should, not be able to 'hack' it.

I dont understand how it 'breaks how capitalism works', and I dont see how you can even suggest that. But I do understand what they are saying. After all if everyone had the recipe why would anyone bother with the middle man. But I dont really know. I dont think it is only about money, I think it is more out of frustration, I mean how long did someone spend trying to make a great game that is fair and fun, that creates a community of followers bring them enjoyment, and some little punk goes and tries to reck that. I think you would be angry too.

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folder icon   10-23-2010, 03:17 PM
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If I add more sugar to my bottle of Coke, because there isn't enough sugar in it, can Coca Cola sue me? I hope not, because I'll need that money for medical bills.

I'm not trying to make an argument one way or the other. I'm just pointing out the danger of using analogies.

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folder icon   10-24-2010, 02:32 AM
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Well it all depends on whether or not you go on a brutal public tour with CocaColaZorax selling it to people on the street calling it Regular Coca Cola ORRR ZoraxCola in which cases it would be quite illegal.

ZORAXCOLA IS A GOOD NAME FOR COLA. OR ALIENS.

/drunkxzor

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folder icon   10-24-2010, 05:10 AM
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I know the danger of using analogies but I dont know how else to put to point across. In many respects it is a very bad analogue, but it is only that, an analogue. Two things or ideas can be similar with out being identical.

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folder icon   10-24-2010, 04:29 PM
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I dunno that's a really bad analogy. I think you should instead stick with artwork as an analogy.

See what I think you're trying to say is, if I made some sketch and somebody else took that sketch and did a photo manipulation thereof and called it a new original work and then began to showcase that online. When that becomes illegal is if...

a) He/she is profiting off said venture

b) Never mentioned my original artwork which was used for the manipulation

I can't just sue someone just because they got a hold of a copy of my artwork, in a legit purchased manner, then modified it in a personal use manner. On the other hand, if that is considered priceless art work in some protected manner like by UNESCO, then they cannot deface the artwork since it is a historical piece.

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a suicide bomber taken out by a suicide bomber? priceless
Masey209: JUST MAKE HER HAVE SEX WITH ME!!
Enix: Oops added an extra zero to it just like your hydro bill
CowUltrapunk: SLOW
CowUltrapunk: slow as your dick
dimitri583: i told you
dimitri583: my dick is fast as fuck
CowUltrapunk: working on your unspeakable weapon of mass atrocities?
ZoraxP: Yep. I call it the USA.
Urin Bloodface: i know ontario
Urin Bloodface: ive even been to vancover
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folder icon   10-25-2010, 02:41 PM
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Sammy the Saint

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No, I never go to the art analogy. It is worse then the recipe analogy. A game is a product, but what is the nature of that product that you are buying? Can I take the icons from any game I buy and use them in my own game? (assuming I am not profiting off said venture) Am I buying the rights to the story line? In many games the story is, after all, why I buy it. Am I buying the artwork within the game? Am I buying the physic engine? etc etc A game has many aspects, as we all probably know. That is why I go to the recipe analogy which is not that great. But I'll try to explain.

If I buy a bottle of ZORAXCOLA I am not buying the rights to the recipe, and thus have no right to make ZORAXCOLA in my basement. However if I simply add a sugar table and start drinking, then what? well most likely nothing bar losing a few teeth. Now if I go around telling people that this is still in fact ZORAXCOLA that I am drinking, and neglect the fact that I have added anything, then does ZORAXCOLA™ not have the right to defend its product? (Yet another bad analogy, but it will do for now.)

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folder icon   10-25-2010, 06:51 PM
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So, concluding, SC II is a work of UNESCO art.

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folder icon   10-25-2010, 07:05 PM
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I'll go with Chaotica.

EDIT: Okay fine...

If you bought some coca cola, added sugar to it and told people this was coca cola then the company can sue you for misrepresenting them. If you bought coca cola, added sugar to it and gave it to someone and said "this is coca cola with sugar added, i call it sammycola", then coca cola can do.... nothing to you. In fact this analogy is really bad because you can in fact resell coca cola in any manner you feel like and it is totally legal (except pretending to be coca cola). You're overestimating the power of what a copyright does.

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folder icon   10-26-2010, 02:07 AM
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I don't think peeps should be allowed to cheat online, because fuck that, but they should be allowed to do whatever they want with the game they bought. I used to build LEGO torture chambers, put all these little pirate dudes in them, and set the whole thing on fire. Their little smiling faces would frown as the plastic began to sweat, bubble, and melt. The smoke was something that kids should not inhale.

The point is: I did it alone on my back porch, and I didn't do it to other kids' LEGO.

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folder icon   10-26-2010, 04:07 AM
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Competitive games are allowed to have their own sets of rules and regulations however trivial the games might be. You can't use metal bats in major league baseball and you can't hack Starcraft for achievements. Yeah, the bats is a bigger deal, but the makers of the game are allowed to keep it competitive. Since Starcraft assumes that every person hooked up to the online game is playing competitively for those achievements, it has a right to enforce the rules.

I just think this is so obvious that Blizzard has all the rights here. Just because people paid money doesn't mean they get to break established rules. A gambler at at a casino pays money but he's not going to get a full refund if he gets caught hacking the machine to win big.

We play our games rules and they have power in court. If a baseball player loses his job for breaking the rules, he can't sue. If a gambler gets caught breaking the rules, he gets thrown in jail. If a kid is playing a game online breaks the rules, he gets kicked off the game.

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folder icon   10-26-2010, 08:35 AM
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Madmac, we're saying that we should have the right to play the game OFFLINE where it AFFECTS NO ONE in ANY MANNER we desire because we PAID FOR THE GAME. We don't really give a fuck what the EULA is because we know how it SHOULD BE. We are not arguing WHO IS RIGHT, but why BLIZZARD IS STUPID.

Did the caps help you?

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folder icon   10-26-2010, 10:50 AM
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Well more the argument is about what you are buying when you buy a game, and if the EULA has any credibility being there in the first place.

And yes I think the only thing we all agree on is that blizzard has all rights when booting people caught cheating on b.net.

I dont know, but apart of me agrees with gaming companies as they wish to protect their products. But the other part of me enjoys pulling things apart to see how they work. So meh, but I still think that there must be a reason the EULA is there, legally speaking, or else why the hell would every software company and or producer/product etc bother with them if they had no relevance. Seems like a huge waste of time and money if you ask me.

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folder icon   10-26-2010, 04:47 PM
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The existence of a law should not be enough to justify its own existence.

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folder icon   10-26-2010, 06:36 PM
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The point is, I got my achievements on SC2 by playing the game for three days, on normal difficulty with an unhacked game. When I found out I had to play the campaign levels I hadn't chosen, I did that, too. I started working through the hard levels so I could get those achievements. Someday I may be good enough to get the achievements on Brutal difficulty. But fuck all that if some guttersnipe thinks he can load up hax.exe and get all the achievements unlocked at once, then come on to battle.net and parade around with his shiny, shiny badges. I don't care if we never talk, I don't care if no one ever actively compares me to them. I'd much rather my achievements said "Yes. I spent hours getting these when I could have been making sweet, passionate love to my wife", not "Wham, bam, in/out in five seconds. Just like when I make love to my wife".

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folder icon   10-26-2010, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Jester
Madmac, we're saying that we should have the right to play the game OFFLINE where it AFFECTS NO ONE in ANY MANNER we desire because we PAID FOR THE GAME. We don't really give a fuck what the EULA is because we know how it SHOULD BE. We are not arguing WHO IS RIGHT, but why BLIZZARD IS STUPID.

Did the caps help you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadMac
That being said, if you want to tinker with the game's code you should unplug your internet cord and don't tell people about it. Battle Net has rules, it's allowed to have rules, and they looking at everybody on the damn grid. You're given a set number of parts to deal with in the online race that is Battle Net, you can use only those parts and if you don't use those specific parts you're breaking the rules. Unplug your ethernet if you must hack. Blizzard's covering their asses, they're not money grubbing. It's a new game and they don't want to put up with any bullshit. Honestly who's going to buy the game again after getting banned? I wouldn't, Fuck them.

I'm glad we agree 100% DJ.

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folder icon   10-27-2010, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorax
The existence of a law should not be enough to justify its own existence.
Justification on the law is easy, you should have the right to protect your product, intellectual property, copy rights and so. Justifying how the law was implemented by Blizzard Entreatment in these cases is difficult, as we are uncertain if the above justification applies.

But yes I agree with your sentiment.

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