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folder icon   02-27-2008, 01:15 AM
Here's a thought-provoking question (hopefully) Post #1
kiljaeden

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*Disclaimer: I am basing this hypothetical situation on a system of beliefs that are not my own. If you're curious, PM me and I'll give you my personal beliefs.



Okay. Say the Apocolypse happens, and everyone dies. Souls start getting sorted into either Heaven or Hell. You have to go to one or the other, there is no other option. Now, say there are some people who were neither good nor evil, people that never did anything to affiliate themselves with a moral "side", as it were. Would such people go to Heaven for not doing any evil or go to Hell for not doing any good? Discuss.

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folder icon   02-27-2008, 02:48 AM
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Urin_BloodfaceII

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The shizzle in ma bizzle is that it does not matter if your good or bad. Its if you have accepted Jesus as your savior with your <3. Its not like you can earn your way into heaven, you got to realize that you suck the devils cock and there is no way into heaven, except through jesus. The thing is that people expect you to do the things god wants through your love for him not elfish reasons.

So ... if you waste your life helping others and do no selfish act what so ever, and die helping a baby out of a burning building ... you will go strait to hell if you are not a Christian. If Hitler became a true Christian before he died he would come to heaven.

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folder icon   02-27-2008, 10:36 AM
Post #3
kiljaeden

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I'm not basing this question on any religion. I'm basing it on the principle that if you were good you go to Heaven, if you were bad you went to Hell.

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folder icon   02-27-2008, 10:48 AM
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Heaven and Hell are christian concepts. Try again.

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folder icon   02-27-2008, 01:16 PM
Post #5
so and so

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"The opposite of love isn't hate, but indifference." - Oscar Wilde.

Pretending to know what God wants is useless. What would I do? I'd send all the good people to heaven and all the bad people into councelling with angels. I'd "cure" all the insane ones. I'd also make sure heaven was like an amusement park/mall/upscale housing complex, where everything was free and no one got hurt. Oh, and there could be lectures by famous people in history.

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folder icon   02-27-2008, 05:18 PM
Post #6
kiljaeden

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Jester
Heaven and Hell are christian concepts. Try again.

The names are yes, but the concepts are pretty much universally accepted by religions, but I see your point. Ignore that tidbit for the sake of argument.

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folder icon   02-27-2008, 07:13 PM
Post #7
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I don't believe people's lives are some kind of test to determine eternal damnation or redemption.

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folder icon   02-27-2008, 10:52 PM
Post #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiljaeden
I'm not basing this question on any religion. I'm basing it on the principle that if you were good you go to Heaven, if you were bad you went to Hell.

Not nay religion but you name heaven and hell which is used solely by the abrahamic religions... well maybe not solely but primarily.

The discussion revolves around which religion you want to talk about. And if you dont want to revolve it around a particular religion the question is either mute because you'd follow atheist thought and then there is no afterlife or the question doesnt make sense in which case it doesnt matter which you go to.

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folder icon   02-28-2008, 02:55 AM
Post #9
Urin_BloodfaceII

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Sorry, my bad. Thought you meant Christian since you used "apocalypse" , "heaven" & "hell".

But then I would say "the good place" since the people you are talking about would probably constitute retards and children. Do not think anyone over 6 ( except retards ) are neither good or bad. Even though the concepts of good and bad are up for discussion.

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folder icon   02-28-2008, 04:20 AM
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I would say that knowing what happens after you die constitutes useless knowledge, whatever happens happens and won't affect anyone alive.

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folder icon   02-28-2008, 06:24 AM
Post #11
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I'd have television in heaven, with all the best comedians giving live talk shows adn such and no commercials. plus you could attend live, and certain people could take turns going on stage to speak with them, etc. Special guestss, etc, you know, there could be a story in this somewhere... life in heaven. What people do, and how they live. It could be funny.

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folder icon   02-28-2008, 11:16 AM
Post #12
kiljaeden

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urin_BloodfaceII
Sorry, my bad. Thought you meant Christian since you used "apocalypse" , "heaven" & "hell".

But then I would say "the good place" since the people you are talking about would probably constitute retards and children. Do not think anyone over 6 ( except retards ) are neither good or bad. Even though the concepts of good and bad are up for discussion.


It was hypothetical, you jerk. lol

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folder icon   03-28-2008, 09:50 AM
Post #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiljaeden
*Disclaimer: I am basing this hypothetical situation on a system of beliefs that are not my own. If you're curious, PM me and I'll give you my personal beliefs.



Okay. Say the Apocolypse happens, and everyone dies. Souls start getting sorted into either Heaven or Hell. You have to go to one or the other, there is no other option. Now, say there are some people who were neither good nor evil, people that never did anything to affiliate themselves with a moral "side", as it were. Would such people go to Heaven for not doing any evil or go to Hell for not doing any good? Discuss.


Well if you take it from the Christian viewpoint you go to limbo which is the "inbetween" which is....(quote from wikipedia)

Here reside the unbaptized and the virtuous pagans, who, though not sinful, did not accept Christ. Here also reside those who, if they lived before the coming of Christ, did not pay fitting homage to their respective deity. They are not punished in an active sense, but rather grieve only their separation from God, without hope of reconciliation. The chief irony in this circle is that Limbo shares many characteristics with Elysian Fields, thus the guiltless damned are punished by living in their deficient form of heaven. Without baptism ("the portal of faith," Canto IV, l.36) they lacked faith — the hope for something greater than rational minds can conceive. Limbo includes green fields and a castle, the dwelling place of the wisest men of antiquity, including Virgil himself, as well as the Islamic philosophers Averroes and Avicenna. In the castle Dante meets the poets Homer, Horace, Ovid, and Lucan and the philosophers Socrates and Plato. Interestingly, he also sees Saladin in Limbo. (Canto IV) Dante implies that all virtuous pagans find themselves here, although he later encounters two in heaven and one (Cato of Utica) in purgatory.

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folder icon   03-28-2008, 11:18 AM
Post #14
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Man, I need to read that book! Can you recommend a good translation?

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folder icon   03-28-2008, 03:27 PM
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I enjoyed the Russian translation of it.

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folder icon   03-29-2008, 12:16 AM
Post #16
kiljaeden

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No middle ground, you jerk. One or the other.

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To find his equal an Irishman is forced to talk to talk to God. - Stephen

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folder icon   03-30-2008, 09:27 PM
Post #17
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I would:
1) Give these individuals a hypothetical moral question designed expressly to determine whether or not they were suitable material. The test would be administered by an sufficiently-potent/scient being who could simply read the individual's mind. A positive answer would allow entry into heaven, a negative answer would require condemnation.
2) Flip a coin. Because they were neither good nor bad, either result is sufficient.
3) Based on this, I could point to a verse in Revelations (?) that reads : You are lukewarm. Because you are neither hot or cold, I will spit you out.

My favourite answer is this:

4) Throw the entirety of humanity into a pit, where there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth. From the very tallest cloud, hang a single wooden ladder. Inform humanity that the only way for any one of them to avoid eternal torment is for them all to co-operate in the task of building a tower to the ladder, and then climbing it - one at a time, no pushing, symbolically accepting God's help for the final few steps. Any pushing, shoving, scratching or biting (also, whining and moaning) will result in anything they have already built collapsing, forcing a restart.

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folder icon   04-02-2008, 12:12 PM
Post #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
I'd have television in heaven, with all the best comedians giving live talk shows adn such and no commercials. plus you could attend live, and certain people could take turns going on stage to speak with them, etc. Special guestss, etc, you know, there could be a story in this somewhere... life in heaven. What people do, and how they live. It could be funny.

But most jokes are complaining about the world or making fun of flaws in the world - if heaven is perfect, then there won't be anything for the comedians to joke about. The best you can do is, "I'm looking for a Miss Helen A. Andbasket."

Anyway...

I don't think anyone is bad. Everyone would go to heaven and have all their wants and needs taken care of. Even those that want to see others in pain would believe they were seeing others in pain.

Because it's not actually evil - it's all part of god's crazy twisted plan.

Except I don't believe in god. Or heaven or hell. But I do believe in the basic goodness of humans.

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folder icon   04-04-2008, 03:49 AM
Post #19
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There's no such thing as a person with no moral "side".
If there was this person would upon being born have to not do anything in their entire life.
They would have to be put into an isolation chamber from birth and just kept alive somehow until the "apocolypse" happened.
Everyone does good or bad things in their life it's not possible to be in the middle.

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folder icon   04-04-2008, 06:28 AM
Post #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorn969

Except I don't believe in god. Or heaven or hell. But I do believe in the basic goodness of humans.


then the thought provoking question would be ... how do you define good and bad without God?

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folder icon   04-04-2008, 12:28 PM
Post #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urin_BloodfaceII
then the thought provoking question would be ... how do you define good and bad without God?

Actions that change the survival rate of the individual versus the herd.

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folder icon   04-16-2008, 10:26 AM
Post #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk
Actions that change the survival rate of the individual versus the herd.

Good answer on my behalf.

I would take a slightly more limited view of 'bad'. A bad action would be an action designed purely to reduce the survival rate of life. A good action would be any action intended to increase the survival rate of life, even if the action is only intended to benefit one member of life, such as oneself.

I think most everyone who hurts others justifies it by believing that their actions are for the betterment of life or for their own survival. Therefore, at least from their perspective, their actions are good. Which, to me, means that they are good people, if possibly quite mistaken. In some cases, individuals hurt others for their own pleasure and may believe that others are somehow less valuable. They also believe they are doing right or at least not wrong, which, by my definition, makes them a good person. They are bettering life by bettering themselves.

Of course, there is an objective good or bad and a subjective good or bad. I think everyone is subjectively good but many people are objectively bad. Balancing a person's actions to determine a final measure of objective value is impossible. But basically, assuming everyone is subjectively good, then I would say they deserve to go to heaven, assuming there is a heaven, because they didn't act intentionally to harm life.

Although it is quite possible to unintentionally create great harm, as long as it is done with good intentions, I don't think it is really wrong.

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folder icon   02-12-2009, 12:07 PM
your life helping others Post #23
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your life helping others and do no selfish act what so ever, and die helping a baby out of a burning building ... you will go strait to hell if you are not a Christian. If Hitler became a true Christian before he died he would come to heaven.

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folder icon   02-12-2009, 12:50 PM
Post #24
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What if i kill something with the desire to be evil/destroy?

I dont always have to justify my action as good if i feel the need to be bad.




And what about the mentally ill who are not always in a good enough state of mind to interpret good and evil.

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folder icon   02-13-2009, 03:21 AM
Post #25
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The answer is that they'll become vampires. Like Judas.

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