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folder icon   11-18-2004, 01:57 AM
Voter Fraud In 2004 Election!!!!! Post #1
CEO Morgan

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quote:
In Georgia, which recently purchased 22,000 Diebold touch screens, some voters touched one candidate's name on the screen and saw another candidate's name appear
A former news reporter in Florida discovered that votes were being tabulated in 644 Palm Beach precincts: but Palm Beach only has 643 precincts. An earlier court case in Florida found the same discrepancy. A reporter in New Jersey observed 104 precincts with votes in an area that has only 102 precincts.
Baldwin County results showed that Democrat Don Siegelman won the state of Alabama. However, the next morning, 6,300 of Siegelman's votes disappeared and the election was handed to Republican Bob Riley. A recount was requested and denied.
In North Carolina, a software programming error caused vote-counting machines to skip over several thousand votes, both Republican and Democratic. Fixing the error turned up 5,500 more votes and reversed the election.
In Comal County Texas, an uncanny coincidence resulted in three Republican candidates winning by exactly 18,181 votes each. Two other Republican candidates outside Texas also won by exactly 18,181 votes.
In October, election officials in Raleigh, N.C., discovered that early voters had to make several attempts to record their votes on ES&S systems. Officials compared the number of voters to the number of votes counted and realized that 294 votes had been lost.
A report from the Caltech-MIT Voting Technology Project states that an estimated 1.5 million presidential votes were not recorded in 2000 because of difficulties using voting equipment and that electronic machines have the second highest rate of unmarked, uncounted and spoiled ballots in presidential, Senate, and governor elections over the last 12 years.

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folder icon   11-18-2004, 02:44 AM
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The Angry Frenchman

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Do you really think Democrats would have won in Georgia, North Carolina, Alabama, and Texas?!?

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folder icon   11-18-2004, 04:41 AM
Post #3
CEO Morgan

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What the fuck does that matter? Every vote has to be counted no matter how clear the outcome may be. This is a serious violation of democracy and you can't see it?

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folder icon   11-18-2004, 12:58 PM
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Many of the state legislators decided to ignore IEEE warnings that they had not had the time to properly regulate e-voting machines. All those e-voting machines were tested only by a manufacturers guarantee. KInd of like those wireless routers than anyone can hack, even though it has a manufacturer's guarantee on the transmission encryption.

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folder icon   11-19-2004, 05:46 PM
Post #5
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I say send in mass UN guys to check the elections.

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folder icon   11-19-2004, 07:50 PM
Post #6
The Angry Frenchman

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CEO Morgan
Every vote has to be counted no matter how clear the outcome may be. This is a serious violation of democracy and you can't see it?

Not when it doesn't matter. They wouldn't have changed anything.

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folder icon   11-20-2004, 01:40 AM
Post #7
CEO Morgan

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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Angry Frenchman
Not when it doesn't matter. They wouldn't have changed anything.

With that logic you wouldn't even bother to count any presidential votes in Texas because the outcome is so clear. Man you should consider moving back to North Korea.

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folder icon   11-20-2004, 05:54 PM
Post #8
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I never lived in North Korea and I don't like communism. But when you look at the first tally of the votes and the majority is huge, a recount isn't going to change anything. That's anywhere.

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folder icon   11-21-2004, 12:12 AM
Post #9
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I'd have to say that if that if that's it... then it was a pretty successful election. I don't think you can find one election in history without some fraud in it. Four or five cases doesn't sound half bad at all.

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folder icon   11-21-2004, 05:59 PM
Post #10
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These problems are easily fixed. The only problem is, the people in charge of regulating the votes don't want to fix it.

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folder icon   11-21-2004, 08:41 PM
Post #11
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Well every US state had voting fraud, its just a matter of how much and if policies are being put in place to reduce it.

There's no "it doesn't matter" thing. How do you know it doesnt matter unless u check out the voter fraud? You might as well not have an election in 2008 then, and just turn over all the new england, great lake and west coast states to the democrats, and the rest to the republicans, cuz hey, counting doesnt matter right?

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folder icon   11-21-2004, 09:05 PM
Post #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaotica
I say send in mass UN guys to check the elections.

*Lightbringer puts a bullet through Chaotica's head*

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folder icon   11-21-2004, 11:56 PM
Post #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightbringer
*Lightbringer puts a bullet through Chaotica's head*

Nice. No offence there, Chaotica.

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folder icon   11-22-2004, 12:11 AM
Post #14
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Yes Truly insightful Lightbringer.

And no it wasn't just those five cases. There were plenty of instances of voter fraud. How about adding "Banning Gay Marriage" to the Presidential ballot in Ohio (--> may have been a different state, it was a swing state though). Yea get all your republican friends out there to ban gay marriage. This election shouldn't be about morals over marriage when there are a hundred thousand Iraqi people Dead for the death of thirty times Less that ammount in New York from a completely unaffiliated organization. Perhaps its not fraud since its perfectly legal, but its a horrible manipulation of our democracy.

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folder icon   11-22-2004, 12:46 AM
Post #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadMac
Yes Truly insightful Lightbringer.

And no it wasn't just those five cases. There were plenty of instances of voter fraud. How about adding "Banning Gay Marriage" to the Presidential ballot in Ohio (--> may have been a different state, it was a swing state though). Yea get all your republican friends out there to ban gay marriage. This election shouldn't be about morals over marriage when there are a hundred thousand Iraqi people Dead for the death of thirty times Less that ammount in New York from a completely unaffiliated organization. Perhaps its not fraud since its perfectly legal, but its a horrible manipulation of our democracy.


I think Americans are a lot more important than Iraqis in America. Just like Iraqis are a lot more important than Americans in Iraq.

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folder icon   11-22-2004, 10:15 AM
Post #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightbringer
*Lightbringer puts a bullet through Chaotica's head*

Well thank you Lightbringer.

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folder icon   11-22-2004, 05:53 PM
Post #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Angry Frenchman
I think Americans are a lot more important than Iraqis in America. Just like Iraqis are a lot more important than Americans in Iraq.

Uhh. Right. Wait no... I'm sorry you've completely lost me what does that have to do with 100,000 dead in Iraq as oppose to 3,500 dead in New York? So then, the 3,500 is important to us because those were americans in america, but the 100,000 is important too because those were iraqis in iraq... yea I still don't follow.

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folder icon   11-22-2004, 08:29 PM
Post #18
The Angry Frenchman

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadMac
Uhh. Right. Wait no... I'm sorry you've completely lost me what does that have to do with 100,000 dead in Iraq as oppose to 3,500 dead in New York? So then, the 3,500 is important to us because those were americans in america, but the 100,000 is important too because those were iraqis in iraq... yea I still don't follow.

I meant that the 3,500 Americans should be important to Americans (not to Iraqis), and the 100,000 Iraqis should be important to Iraqis (not to Americans).

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folder icon   11-23-2004, 01:51 PM
Post #19
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Such a shallow view of the world, when the only humans that matter are the ones you are attached to by mere nationality.

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folder icon   11-23-2004, 02:11 PM
Post #20
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Why even call them americans and iraqis? They are all HUMANS. Shit the same if they die in Iraq or the US.

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folder icon   11-23-2004, 06:21 PM
Post #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CEO Morgan
What the fuck does that matter? Every vote has to be counted no matter how clear the outcome may be. This is a serious violation of democracy and you can't see it?

Be careful about crossing the line from activist to whiner. its over and would have been over, get over yourself for the greater good. Everyone stomached Clinton lying on national TV, and committing perjury, and starting more armed conflicts than Bush (thats right he did). With 280 million people, the government gets big and messy, welcome to politics.

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folder icon   11-23-2004, 06:51 PM
Post #22
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I'd like to know whether some radical, biased site told you there were 100,000 dead Iraqis in Iraq, or if you just made that number up yourself? Because I am quite sure that the actual number is less than a quarter of that.


That being said, millions of people dying halfway across the world is no reason not to vote on an unrelated issue at home. However, the issues does violate civil rights, and I hope that the upcoming lawsuits will put an end to these silly bans.

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folder icon   11-24-2004, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firebunny
Be careful about crossing the line from activist to whiner. its over and would have been over, get over yourself for the greater good. Everyone stomached Clinton lying on national TV, and committing perjury, and starting more armed conflicts than Bush (thats right he did). With 280 million people, the government gets big and messy, welcome to politics.

What exactly is your point? He didnt say anything about changing the election results, he said that every persons vote should count.

Do you disagree with him?

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folder icon   11-24-2004, 12:28 PM
Post #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaknafien
What exactly is your point? He didnt say anything about changing the election results, he said that every persons vote should count.

Do you disagree with him?



im talking about impeding the normal functioning of government, bringing lawsuits and complaints with the sole intention of stalling or creating more divisions.

JUST LET IT GO

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folder icon   11-24-2004, 12:28 PM
Post #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaggin
I'd like to know whether some radical, biased site told you there were 100,000 dead Iraqis in Iraq, or if you just made that number up yourself? Because I am quite sure that the actual number is less than a quarter of that.


That being said, millions of people dying halfway across the world is no reason not to vote on an unrelated issue at home. However, the issues does violate civil rights, and I hope that the upcoming lawsuits will put an end to these silly bans.


An international group conducted a survey by comparing the death rate of now compared with the death rate before the war. They calculated the difference in the death rate over the time period, and determined a number that was like 250 000 Iraqis that died, were it not for the increased death rate. Taking out the hotspots in the calculations, ie places the Americans are bombing and invading like Fallujah, the number drops to 100 000. It is the same method of calculation used in Kosovo. This was a news article on all major news networks, i saw it on CNN as well, so im not sure why you missed it.

So the number isnt about how many americans killed directly, but rather both directly and indirectly. THey also found that violence is the number one cause of death now. Before the war, it was like heart disease or something like that.

---------

When it comes to counting votes, letting it go sounds like bullshit to me. Im sorry, but if it creates divisions, thats too bad. Better to fix it now than half a century later in a big ass civil war.

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folder icon   11-24-2004, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firebunny
im talking about impeding the normal functioning of government, bringing lawsuits and complaints with the sole intention of stalling or creating more divisions.

JUST LET IT GO


Funny how he never mentioned any of that. Quit being paranoid.

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folder icon   11-25-2004, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk
An international group conducted a survey by comparing the death rate of now compared with the death rate before the war. They calculated the difference in the death rate over the time period, and determined a number that was like 250 000 Iraqis that died, were it not for the increased death rate. Taking out the hotspots in the calculations, ie places the Americans are bombing and invading like Fallujah, the number drops to 100 000. It is the same method of calculation used in Kosovo. This was a news article on all major news networks, i saw it on CNN as well, so im not sure why you missed it.

So the number isnt about how many americans killed directly, but rather both directly and indirectly. THey also found that violence is the number one cause of death now. Before the war, it was like heart disease or something like that.

---------

When it comes to counting votes, letting it go sounds like bullshit to me. Im sorry, but if it creates divisions, thats too bad. Better to fix it now than half a century later in a big ass civil war.


Its also bull shit. They completely rigged that survey asking unreliable sources and basically recording any death that any iraqi told them about and the exponentially increasing the number to create a sweeping number for the whole of iraq. The people who took that survey are coming under a lot of heat for that shitty thing.

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folder icon   11-25-2004, 05:28 PM
Post #28
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Not to mention, it's a war. And up until that war, things in Iraq were really quiet, since Saddam was under such scrutiny. And, of course, those "freedom fighters" are doing more killing than anyone else in Iraq today.

But yeah, feel free to backup that number.

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folder icon   11-25-2004, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strifestrike
Its also bull shit. They completely rigged that survey asking unreliable sources and basically recording any death that any iraqi told them about and the exponentially increasing the number to create a sweeping number for the whole of iraq. The people who took that survey are coming under a lot of heat for that shitty thing.

Um, not really. They're coming under fire by the Bush administration and the Pentagon primarily, as CNN, CBC, BBC etc have all backed it up. It's not entirely accurate, and they did not believe every sob story. They have evidence where they could obtain it. The minimum confirmed iraqi deaths is about 13000.

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folder icon   11-26-2004, 01:07 AM
Post #30
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I would put the number around 20k actually, give or take. 100 is obviously bull shit written to make America look bad.

Edit: Not that 20 is great either, it sucks, its more than all of the combat casualties combined and I have always been a firm believer in sparing civilians, even though we dont directly attack them I feel terrible when we kill them. After all we went to war because terrorists killed our own civilians.

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folder icon   11-26-2004, 12:43 PM
Post #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strifestrike
I would put the number around 20k actually, give or take. 100 is obviously bull shit written to make America look bad.

Edit: Not that 20 is great either, it sucks, its more than all of the combat casualties combined and I have always been a firm believer in sparing civilians, even though we dont directly attack them I feel terrible when we kill them. After all we went to war because terrorists killed our own civilians.


Well simply calling it bullshit depends on who you are. Argh, i dunno how to spell the guy's name, but u know the person from Kosovo. He'd like to ignore the number of 10s of thousands of deaths by mass murder and genocide. The estimate was made the exact same way as it was done in this situation.

But, well, the majority of the civilian deaths are caused by the major increase in crime (you are forgetting that component) and US bombardments. No matter how you look at it, dropping a bomb into a city is going to kill civilians. And lawlessness in several regions and an increase in lawlessness in all regions, leads to an increase of crime and as such an increase in violent crime. That accounts for many of that extra 100 000 deaths. Like i said, the 100 000 dead is because of the war overall, not by us machineguns. It may make US look bad, but well, i dont think the number increasing is going to make your country look any worse than it already does.

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folder icon   11-28-2004, 10:32 PM
Post #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaggin
I'd like to know whether some radical, biased site told you there were 100,000 dead Iraqis in Iraq, or if you just made that number up yourself? Because I am quite sure that the actual number is less than a quarter of that.


That being said, millions of people dying halfway across the world is no reason not to vote on an unrelated issue at home. However, the issues does violate civil rights, and I hope that the upcoming lawsuits will put an end to these silly bans.


I believe Ultra Punk justified it all rather well.

But to get Back To the Topic... "millions of people dying halfway across the world is no reason not to vote on an unrelated issue at home."

I believe what you said is perfectly valid, however it doesn't refute what I said. I believe that adding a frivilous issue onto a presidential election during times of war simply takes away from the more important issue at hand, The War. Sure, people can vote on banning gay marriage, but Why Gaggin? Whats the Point? The point is Gaggin, is that they put a Republican biased issue on the ballot. It was adressed by the Republicans as being an issue, while the Democrats didn't promote gay marriage but instead took almost a neutral stand on the whole issue. (Kerry opposed gay marriage, but pointed out the hypocrisy in George Bush's attacks against it seeing as the Vice presidents daughter is a lesbian.) So when you put it on the ballot you get more republican voters out to vote to ban then you get gays and straight people who are pro gay marriage. This is Manipulation. Its democracy at its worst.

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folder icon   11-30-2004, 07:09 PM
Post #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk
Such a shallow view of the world, when the only humans that matter are the ones you are attached to by mere nationality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikabutcher
Why even call them americans and iraqis? They are all HUMANS. Shit the same if they die in Iraq or the US.

Well, it's a shallow world. And do you believe in that hippie notion of "world peace"? If you do, I hate to tell you, but it's never going to happen. The world is overpopulated anyway, that's what wars and plagues are for!

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folder icon   11-30-2004, 07:11 PM
Post #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Angry Frenchman
Well, it's a shallow world. And do you believe in that hippie notion of "world peace"? If you do, I hate to tell you, but it's never going to happen. The world is overpopulated anyway, that's what wars and plagues are for!

I have this distinct feeling you aren't being serious.

If you don't think peace is ever a viable option, you shoudl kill your own family right now. Otherwise, you're being a hypocrit.

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folder icon   11-30-2004, 08:43 PM
Post #35
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Silly beings, War IS Peace...

Anyway, about the ban on gay marriage and such, I wouldn't call it manipulation, since that would be a bad word for it. I would call it aggressive vs neutral vs homosexuals.

Heres the whole look on the situation, you have a lot of people who want gay marriage banned from their state. Those people go out with petitions to get people to sign them. With enough signatures it gets on the ballot, and the aggressive group goes out and votes for the issue so it will pass. Meanwhile, you have you homosexuals who obviously don't want this to pass, rather than promoting their issues (and if they did it was to a very small degree) they sat by quietly hoping for the liberals to intervene. However the liberals (aka Neutral) will not take a stand on the issue, which is very typical of many liberals. One reason is because many, "old" liberals are some of the most aggressives against homosexual unions, therefore rather anger them and have them vote conservative, liberals take the easy path declaring neutrality. Therefore we have a large group of aggressives, a large group of liberals, and a small group of homosexuals. What do you get? A land slide vote for the issue which passed in every state heavily.

Manipulation? No, its more of lots of people for banning gay marriage, and few against it. With a lot of people in between who don't really care. I think this perfectly represents democracy, the majority of people voted for the issue, while fewer voted for it. Isn't that democracy? And there are some who wish to take the issue to court, another representation of democracy. And all the votes were obtained in legal ways. Oh and everyone was able to vote if they wished to. Manipulation is a bad word and can not be used to represent this case.

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