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Does it Fucking Matter?
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folder icon   01-06-2008, 02:04 PM
Obama Wins in Iowa Post #1
so and so

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Does it Fucking Matter?

Oh, Keeper, I voted for you man!

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folder icon   01-06-2008, 03:25 PM
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The White House could use some Black power

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folder icon   01-06-2008, 04:18 PM
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Obama WILL get shot. By either a Hispanic, a former KKK member or terrorists that want a more aggressive anti-terrorist president.

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folder icon   01-06-2008, 04:54 PM
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Probably not.

The Dems are shooting themselves in the foot this election year. With Bush going out with a pretty low approval rating and confidence in the Republican party diminishing, they go with their eclectic candidates.

Regardless of how much we think the world has advanced, racial prejudice and tentions are still ever present in today's society all over the world. Obama will not get many votes undoubtedly because of his racial background (although I think he is a 50/50 black/white mix).

On the other hand, Hillary has very little universal appeal to much of the American public except by those who like her through Bill. There is a reason why she finished 3rd in the polls in Iowa, and its not because she is a woman.

With my totally unprofessional and unresearched opinion I see the Republican candidate winning out again in the Presidential race. The Dems are throwing away a golden opportunity.

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folder icon   01-06-2008, 05:59 PM
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Crusader, I'd love to disagree with you, but I really feel the same way. I mean, we're talking about the same dumbasses who reelected Bush. I mean, how did that happen?

The best we can hope for is Obama makes the Rep challenger look like a dumbass during the debates. He's smart enough to do it, if he can go with that tactic, and god forbid, plan some jokes.

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folder icon   01-06-2008, 07:13 PM
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Honestly, I don't like any of the candidates who are running. My total feeling for this up coming election is that the American people are going to want change in a different direction from Republican and Democrat. I think very soon we may see more parties starting to emerge.

I for one do not identify myself very much on the Republican ideals/goals issues anymore. Yet I am still very opposed to most Democrat ideas. Finding a party in the United States is becoming harder, because both parties are changing so much. With the flexibility of both the political parties, people who actually do vote and actually wish to use their power of voting will start to move in a different direction. A diversified party system (not something with the range of say a European nation, but much more varied than the political system now) may be an interesting change in American politics.

Republicans and Democrats have had an agreed rivalry with each other, and are virtually tied to keep the other alive. I believe soon in the future the American people will be sick of these "chameleon" parties who change their views to the flavor of the month or just to oppose the other party.

There is hope, the American political system is not perfect just like every single other. Hoping through better education and generational change (with the hippie & generation x people being cycled out) apathy within the American public and the concentration of commercialism will be reduced and the thoughts of using the blessing of freedom and wealth that America holds will be used to promote good will throughout the world.

With hope of a miracle, the American public can stop being distracted by getting the newest SUV, wondering what celebrities are up to, or working for that big promotion, to using their extra time and energy in assisting those who are never guarenteed a meal, clothe people who are without any sufficient covering, and assist nations to build economies and fair governments.

I think changes in American apathy in politics would jump start a more worldly and humanly aware United States.

But I suppose good luck to that happening to any nation. I can't think of one that promotes any of those ideals, or any persons who do as well.

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folder icon   01-06-2008, 10:02 PM
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I disagree that America won't elect Barack. The nation has racists but they don't vote democrat anyway. They're the same folks voting for guns, against abortion, and against hispanics.

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folder icon   01-06-2008, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMadMac
I disagree that America won't elect Barack. The nation has racists but they don't vote democrat anyway. They're the same folks voting for guns, against abortion, and against hispanics.

Eh on closer analyzation you'd be surprised. For example, most Europeans are very liberal especially when compared to Americans. Yet Europeans are probably the most racist people I've ever encountered.

Take a long hard look at yourself and you might be surprised to see there are shreds of racism in everyone.

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folder icon   01-06-2008, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Crusader~
Eh on closer analyzation you'd be surprised. For example, most Europeans are very liberal especially when compared to Americans. Yet Europeans are probably the most racist people I've ever encountered.

Take a long hard look at yourself and you might be surprised to see there are shreds of racism in everyone.


Because racisme isnt fundamentaly bad, in the sense that there is a difference between believing others to be racialy inferior, and to merely believe oneself as member of a certain racial category. Knowing this, I'd say that Europeans have racial notions much more deeply entrenched into their national identity than Americans, since Americans have had a longer, more succesfull experience with integration and immigration, and dont really see whiteness as an essential caracteristic of the american national identity.

In other words, America isnt exclusively white; Europe, historicaly, is.

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folder icon   01-07-2008, 02:15 AM
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Bah. America still has slavery in California.

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folder icon   01-07-2008, 04:14 AM
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Slovaks can be pretty racist against blacks and gypsies. I had one adult student who's a school teacher. i asked her how her classes are, and she said she had some discipline problems because half her students are Slovak and the other half are gypsies. She didn't notice as she said it and i didn't comment on it, but it typifies the way most Slovaks think. If you're gypsie, you're not Slovak, even if you were born here, speak the language, and take part in the economy, etc. So far as Slovaks are concerned, you're just a drain on society.

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folder icon   01-07-2008, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
Slovaks can be pretty racist against blacks and gypsies. I had one adult student who's a school teacher. i asked her how her classes are, and she said she had some discipline problems because half her students are Slovak and the other half are gypsies. She didn't notice as she said it and i didn't comment on it, but it typifies the way most Slovaks think. If you're gypsie, you're not Slovak, even if you were born here, speak the language, and take part in the economy, etc. So far as Slovaks are concerned, you're just a drain on society.

Well there's two valide ways to conceptualize someone's identity. There's a communal social identity, called Gemeinschaft (german for "community"), based on notions of ancestry, familly, shared History, shared traditions, religions, even, in some case, based on notions of race and territory.

Then there's a civil social identity, much broader than the first one, called Gesellschaft (german for... "civil society"), based on notions of laws, economical relations, individuality and individual rights, cosmopolitanism, etc.

If the Gemeinschaft makes you think about small communities and villages, the Gesellschaft imply social relations found in large cities and internationaly-oriented institutions and businesses. But both those concept overlaps frequently.

The Slovaks in your story can't think of the Gypsies as Slovak, if those Slovaks have a conception of social identity thats based on the Gemeinschaft and thus much narrower. Only in a Gesellschaft-oriented society could so many different people blend into a uniform but yet individualist -and therefore weaker- social identity, because of their participation in something as "souless" as the economy or for their respect of the law.

I think that the Gesellschaft and the Gemeinschaft are two pompous concepts used to explain something thats quite simple. Whats really interesting is when you want to justify one conception of social identity over the other, like you seem to do, soandso. You seem to resent the Slovaks for having a exclusive social identity. Why is this?

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folder icon   01-07-2008, 08:21 AM
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Forgetting b~e's super fascinating discussion of terms already identified as pompous and overcomplication of an extremely simple concern...

While Obama is an interesting fellow to get elected into the white house, in the end there isn't much difference between Republicans and Democrats. They're quite slight, and in most cases, the Democrats are still fairly right-wing in most politics outside America. Only americans have the notion that democrats are actually left-wing.

Europe has always been more racist than north america... in fact any country outside of north america is pretty much heavily racist (relatively). The states that go democrat in america aren't going to care that obama is black, or half black or whatever... the only people who wont vote in a black person wouldnt vote democrat either.

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folder icon   01-07-2008, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk
Europe has always been more racist than north america... in fact any country outside of north america is pretty much heavily racist (relatively). The states that go democrat in america aren't going to care that obama is black, or half black or whatever... the only people who wont vote in a black person wouldnt vote democrat either.

Europe is certainly NOT more racist than north America!
Nor has ever been.

Slavery was abolished in all european nations in the early 1800s whereas in america slave trade thrived untill the late 60s.

All nations in america is founded on the white mans supremacy over the indiginous peoples.

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folder icon   01-07-2008, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Thusaud

Slavery was abolished in all european nations in the early 1800s whereas in america slave trade thrived untill the late 60s.


I think you mean segregation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Thusaud


All nations in america is founded on the white mans supremacy over the indiginous peoples.



An ideology equally shared with Europeans. Americans didnt invented it, they inherited it. Nor was the notion of racial superiority specificaly the product of white europeans, its just something they were better at applying against others.

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folder icon   01-07-2008, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Thusaud
Europe is certainly NOT more racist than north America!
Nor has ever been.

Slavery was abolished in all european nations in the early 1800s whereas in america slave trade thrived untill the late 60s.

All nations in america is founded on the white mans supremacy over the indiginous peoples.


Eh keep telling yourself that.

B~E is mostly right as to why Europeans are more inclined to be racist, but the main point I was shooting for is that Racism spans through all people and is inclusive to everyone in the world. It doesn't matter where you stand politically, what your beliefs are, where you are from, what race you actually are, there are still shreds of racism in every single person.

Some people try to repress it, others deny it, while some simply flaunt it.

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folder icon   01-07-2008, 03:48 PM
Post #17
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and some try to justify it. And B~E what you just spewed is just absolute bullshit, and knowing a couple words of german doesn't lend any credence to your lecture. I already explained why I don't like this racial elitist attitude, and I know you understand it.

Kjell, I'm not going to speak for all Europe, or even all peoples in any given country. That in itself would be unfairly prejudiced

What I can do is tell another story, one some old timers may remember. So, back in 2001, when I was studying abroad in Italy, I went to a bar one night, and some dickhead drunk pulled a knife on me. He just threatened me and his friend convinced him to leave, but I told the bartender who got some bouncers out to beat his ass, call the cops, etc.

The next day I had to explain all this to the director of my school, who had another professor to sit in with her. After I told these two exactly what happened, the first thing this professor asked was, "He wasn't Italian, was he."

I said, "what do you mean," wondering what this had to do with anything. I said, I didn't know. So he asked what color the drunk's skin was. I said he spoke italian, and the professor just laughed and said, yeah but he still wasn't Italian. He must have been Croation or Bulgarian. Some such country.

The guy had olive colored skin, but he spoke italian, may have been born in Italy, and what the fuck does it matter anyway? Because to be Italian, you have to have 1,000 years of Italian blood in your family history, otherwise you're just some outsider/visitor, and generally a lesser creature. And this professor was supposedly a liberal progressive.

The whole idea that you can never be included in a society because of where you were born is trite racist bullshit.

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folder icon   01-07-2008, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
and some try to justify it. And B~E what you just spewed is just absolute bullshit, and knowing a couple words of german doesn't lend any credence to your lecture. I already explained why I don't like this racial elitist attitude, and I know you understand it.



Well then excuse me for daring to use german words, but thats just how those two concepts are called. They were established by a german sociologist, Ferdinand Tönnies, and since there isnt no real precise translation of those concepts in english or french, sociologists use german. That all there is to it, so relax.

The notion of two type of association, Gemeinschaft and the Gesellschaft, even if you dont like it, explain perfectly well the attitude of the Croats in your story, despite the fact that the Gypsies are legaly and economicaly active citizens. I never said thats how it should work, I said that this is how it is. Thinking it will go away, or that its even wrong, just because you resent this because its at odd against your own little moral system, now that is bullshit.

If you've already explained why you disagree with this "racial elitist attitude" -even if the notion of race is only secondary here, but whatever?- I must have missed it. If you dont want to bother writting about it here, could you tell me the title or subject of the thread where it was discussed? I'll gladly look it up myself.

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folder icon   01-08-2008, 06:50 AM
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In what way is the US different from the European countries? Isnt there alot of difficulties in being black in America for example?

And another thing. Although I dont really mind with the bunching up of a number of states and cultures as "Europe", saying that "Europe is more racist than the US" in this argument really does not hold any water. I appreciate that there is a huge difference between people living in New York and people living in Mississippi, but that is nothing compared to someone in Germany compared to another one in Poland, just across the border (where the relative distance is miniscule). Making generalisations about this part of the world is very hard. This applies to the entire Eurasian continent too.

Although I do believe Poles at least, are extremely racist .

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folder icon   01-08-2008, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K0d0
And another thing. Although I dont really mind with the bunching up of a number of states and cultures as "Europe", saying that "Europe is more racist than the US" in this argument really does not hold any water. I appreciate that there is a huge difference between people living in New York and people living in Mississippi, but that is nothing compared to someone in Germany compared to another one in Poland, just across the border (where the relative distance is miniscule). Making generalisations about this part of the world is very hard. This applies to the entire Eurasian continent too.


Thus why Europeans are more inclined to be racist. The short distances and wide variety of cultures and ethnicities.

The US is a largely (not totally) similar culture within a huge gathering of ethnicities. No one is saying that there is no racism in the United States. There obviously is. But Europeans through their differences of cultures and the stratification of ethnic groups, not to mention languages, have a stronger tendency to be racist.

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folder icon   01-08-2008, 03:05 PM
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In theory, Crusader, but remember to wait until you have some data before you maintain it as fact.

B~E,
"I never said thats how it should work,"

That's exactly what you implied when you asked why I think it should be different.

"Thinking it will go away, or that its even wrong, just because you resent this because its at odd against your own little moral system, now that is bullshit. "

I never said it would go away. As for having a system of morals, that is most certainly not bullshit. It's completely against Slovakia's best interests to dismiss a large population in its own borders as non-slovak, especially when that population has a heritage in Slovakia that stretches back thousands of years. Here we have two groups with different languages that refuse to learn each other's language. The country's stuck in some longstanding cultural standoff, neither side willing to budge, so the status quo of poverty, welfare, and indemnity continue indefinately.

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folder icon   01-08-2008, 09:29 PM
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In theory, Crusader, but remember to wait until you have some data before you maintain it as fact.


Data on racism is muddled at best nowadays.

We can really only go on theory when approaching such a subject as this. And I'm not maintaining it as a fact, just the trends are there and the logic works.

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folder icon   01-09-2008, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
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B~E,
"I never said thats how it should work,"

That's exactly what you implied when you asked why I think it should be different.



Holy poopoo, thank God you can read my intentions, I'm glad you've made this clear. Forgive me for daring to ask you to justify your position. The nerve of me.
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Originally Posted by so and so


"Thinking it will go away, or that its even wrong, just because you resent this because its at odd against your own little moral system, now that is bullshit. "

I never said it would go away. As for having a system of morals, that is most certainly not bullshit. It's completely against Slovakia's best interests to dismiss a large population in its own borders as non-slovak, especially when that population has a heritage in Slovakia that stretches back thousands of years. Here we have two groups with different languages that refuse to learn each other's language. The country's stuck in some longstanding cultural standoff, neither side willing to budge, so the status quo of poverty, welfare, and indemnity continue indefinately.



...what I said about social identity doesnt contradict this. You're creating an issue against me here, probably because you're offended that I used two pompous german concepts (I recall how hard I rolled my eyes the first time I've heard a teacher talk about it.) and because I said its difficult to argue that the Gemeinschaft is not as desirable as the Gesellschaft.

And its true; unless the Slovaks are really running some sort of costly apartheid-like regime against the gypsies, I doubt that you could convinsingly argue that the Slovaks should give up on their exclusive collective identity and embrace any "foreigners".

Because in my opinion, nationalism or ethnic identities alone are rarely the root cause of such problems, to say so would be an oversimplification that would miss the point.

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folder icon   01-11-2008, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
I think you mean segregation.

No, I mean slavery, segregation did however last eaven as long as into the 1960 ies wich is also saying something
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Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

An ideology equally shared with Europeans. Americans didnt invented it, they inherited it. Nor was the notion of racial superiority specificaly the product of white europeans, its just something they were better at applying against others.


Europeans may have had a history of ideological racism but that largely ended when people started to come here.

America, however, is home to a great deal of applied racism, as the target of it is interacting ithe source of it.

It is a great difference between thinking that some cartoonish wolly haired djungle boy on the coffey jar is less human than yourself and thinking that the family across the street is so.

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folder icon   01-11-2008, 07:22 PM
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Kjell, segregation still exists world wide. It's just not legally supported or required in the US anymore. Every town/city in the US is segregated. It's called "white flight", where white people keep moving to the suburbs and gated communities. It exists even in Slovakia where every town has it's gypsy area and then the rest is white. In America schools are also still largely segregated. Schools that try to boast "diversity" are really 95% black and hispanic - I read it from a Harper's article. Kjell, look up Studs Turkel for more information.

Kjell, I think it's simplistic to say that all Europeans are racist, or "more racist" than Americans. But you have to admit that there are problems with race/minorities, especially with growing muslim populations. You can't ignore the rioting in France, or even the backlash that's reported in the news in places like Finland and Sweden - one result of the recent immigration is rising numbers of neo nazi's across Europe.


B~E you've really dragged me farther into this BS then I ever wanted to go. You spewed some social theory and then said this:

"You seem to resent the Slovaks for having a exclusive social identity. Why is this?"

Having ancestral identity is no excuse for racism. It's fine for a Slovak to be proud of his family tree, and ancestral home, the architecture, culture, music, food, etc. But to believe that "that is Slovak" and everything else isn't, is bullshit, and what's more, this isn't the only problem. I'm not having any misunderstandings with what Slovaks think. I had a student the other day who made fun of gypsies in an essay. She said they're all stupid because they all name their children after pop stars and celebrities. She may have come off sounding racist due to her lack of grammar - saying all, instead of some, but there were still the basic signs of elitism. She didn't want to do anything that would associate herself with being gypsie, and she was unwilling to realize the obvious, that all ethnicities have some people who name their kids after celebrities - or who otherwise give stupid names to their kids. I mean, as a teacher, I've come across children named after frikken videogame characters!

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folder icon   01-11-2008, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Thusaud
No, I mean slavery, segregation did however last eaven as long as into the 1960 ies wich is also saying something

Europeans may have had a history of ideological racism but that largely ended when people started to come here.

America, however, is home to a great deal of applied racism, as the target of it is interacting ithe source of it.

It is a great difference between thinking that some cartoonish wolly haired djungle boy on the coffey jar is less human than yourself and thinking that the family across the street is so.


Racism isn't just Black vs. White.

What about the millions of Jews, Gypsies, Hungarians, Czechs, and Polish that were murdered in the 1940s? It was Europeans who performed these genocides.

A more recent flaunt of European equality? How about Kosovo in the 90s.

The Muslim riots in France? I've had the privilege to meet many Bulgarians through my school, and also have had the interest in hearing their views on Gypsies, whom according to them, would sooner pick your pocket than look at you.

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folder icon   01-11-2008, 09:16 PM
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Black~Enthusiasm

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Crusader~
Racism isn't just Black vs. White.

What about the millions of Jews, Gypsies, Hungarians, Czechs, and Polish that were murdered in the 1940s? It was Europeans who performed these genocides.

A more recent flaunt of European equality? How about Kosovo in the 90s.

The Muslim riots in France? I've had the privilege to meet many Bulgarians through my school, and also have had the interest in hearing their views on Gypsies, whom according to them, would sooner pick your pocket than look at you.


And lets mention the muslim riots in Amsterdam. 22 schools burned down on New Year's Eve, including one police station. The riots have been sporadic since October, but still less spectacular than in France, where 800 cars burned on the 1st of January.
Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so



B~E you've really dragged me farther into this BS then I ever wanted to go. You spewed some social theory and then said this:

"You seem to resent the Slovaks for having a exclusive social identity. Why is this?"

Having ancestral identity is no excuse for racism. It's fine for a Slovak to be proud of his family tree, and ancestral home, the architecture, culture, music, food, etc. But to believe that "that is Slovak" and everything else isn't, is bullshit, and what's more, this isn't the only problem. I'm not having any misunderstandings with what Slovaks think. I had a student the other day who made fun of gypsies in an essay. She said they're all stupid because they all name their children after pop stars and celebrities. She may have come off sounding racist due to her lack of grammar - saying all, instead of some, but there were still the basic signs of elitism. She didn't want to do anything that would associate herself with being gypsie, and she was unwilling to realize the obvious, that all ethnicities have some people who name their kids after celebrities - or who otherwise give stupid names to their kids. I mean, as a teacher, I've come across children named after frikken videogame characters!


Having an ancestral identity isnt the root cause of racisme either, as you seem to suggest. You said '"if you're gypsie, you're not Slovak, even if you were born here, speak the language, and take part in the economy, etc. So far as Slovaks are concerned, you're just a drain on society."

You made a link between having an exclusive social identity, which I think is legitimate, and all-out social discrimination and persecution, which I dont deny is happening. But saying the first cause the other is just lazy thinking. It isnt unlike making some other sweeping generalizations, such as saying that islam is the main underlying cause of terrorisme or that being a male will cause you to commit violent crimes at some point in your life.

If you want to understand why different social groups treat each other the way they do, look beyond the mere fact that they dare to be different from each other.

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folder icon   01-12-2008, 10:29 AM
Post #28
so and so

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"Having an ancestral identity isnt the root cause of racisme either, as you seem to suggest. You said '"if you're gypsie, you're not Slovak, even if you were born here, speak the language, and take part in the economy, etc. So far as Slovaks are concerned, you're just a drain on society."

You made a link between having an exclusive social identity, which I think is legitimate, and all-out social discrimination and persecution, which I dont deny is happening. But saying the first cause the other is just lazy thinking. It isnt unlike making some other sweeping generalizations, such as saying that islam is the main underlying cause of terrorisme or that being a male will cause you to commit violent crimes at some point in your life.

If you want to understand why different social groups treat each other the way they do, look beyond the mere fact that they dare to be different from each other."

B~E your inability to understand others is maddening...

I never said that ancestral identity is the root cause of anything, and I don't equate that to "exclusive social identity". So, therefore, I never made any sweeping generalizations. It's perfectly possible to celebrate your ancestry, and still recognize and validate other peoples of different ancestry who live in your country. All I said is I'm fine with ancestral roots. Is there a link between the two? Well, among Slovaks, I have found some people who are proud of their Slovak history, who don't like gypsies, and who don't think of gypsies as being Slovak. So yes, there might be some link, but I don't think you have to illiminate their pride in their ancestry to solve the current problem of racism. Now, this "exclusive social identity" (not ancestral identity), that you seem to like is a hurdle in the way of creating a more equal populace. It's not a root cause, but it is still a hurdle, so it can't be dismissed. Other causes have to do with general trends.

Gypsies in Slovakia, statistically, take more social welfare programs, engage in more illegal activities, have more health problems, and typically take less care of their homes, possessions, and themselves. Every Slovak I've met feels angry about gypsies for these reasons. In addition gypsies are seen as untrustworthy. The verb "to gypsy" in Slovak, means "to lie". Every Slovak I've met and talked to on this subject can tell specific stories to back up their claims, and the local news increases these feelings through daily stories of illegal activity. While these sorts of news items about gypsies are common, it's unheard of to tell any success story about gypsies, apart from one popular gypsy music band which performs on television frequently.

Thinking along these lines might make one think that prejudice is justified, if not for the basic fact that not all people are alike. Most Slovaks I've met will agree that there are some good gypsies out there, but very few can name any, or have any gypsy friends - the mere concept would somehow offend their sensibilities. This is a fundamental problem, which, as in America, leads to a segregated way of life. Towns are segregated. Schools are mostly segregated - not by law, but through the system. Students are seperated by ability at young ages, with those who are wealthiest or best prepared (white) simply not having any gypsy classmates.

Another general trend of gypsies is to not encourage their children in school. There are many general trends that gypsies must overturn, themselves, if they ever want a degree of wealth and equality. What Slovaks need to see is that this IS happening in some instances, and to give individuals the benefit of the doubt. One of my best students in school is a gypsy.

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folder icon   01-12-2008, 11:55 AM
Post #29
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I think there is two things going on here...

A) Why is racism inherently wrong?
B) What is the root cause of racism?

---

A) Why is racism inherently wrong?

Typically, the perspective from the engineering end is about efficiency and maximal benefit. In social sciences, such as the one b~e is in, there is a tendency to determine things in terms of "win-lose" perspective between different factions, or that everything is inherently equal and correct. Engineering tends toward, there are correct solutions and there are incorrect solutions, and the ultimate goal is to find the best correct solution. Although there are instances where social science also gets into the same mentality it seems to occur less often.

When a society engages in racism, for instance France, it significantly reduces the capabilities of the reigning society. The possible teachers, doctors, engineers, labour workers, skilled labour and even new patentable technologies or art that would have been possible had certain members of society been fully accepted are completely lost. One of the reasons even Canadian immigration is not fully efficient is the backlash against foreign education.

You have individuals with the potential to be much greater but are heavily hindered by racist ideals. Whether its France segregating its muslim population to ghettos on the basis that they are violent and uneducated, or Canada disregarding university degrees from institutions that are perfectly fine, you limit the potential of your society. This is inherently foolish.

---

B) What is the root cause of racism?

The answer to this question is more elusive but having more ancestral heritage gives someone ammunition to be more racist. Without history, without time to grow into certain stereotypes and opinions, there is little chance for racism to even develop.

The ability for humans to discriminate is an important and vital skill to survive in the world. Unfortunately, the ability to discriminate has caused society to differentiate between members of the same species in such a manner that is detrimental to society. The ability to say, "this is a square" and "this is a circle" has become "this is a white man" and "this is a black man".

Once able to differentiate between groups on some identifiable characteristic, people can move on to become racist or multicultural. What pushes people toward one or the other? There does seem to be a natural progression towards greater inclusion over time, and the differentiation is on larger scales.

At one point in time, people thought of the "English" race and the "French" race. These days people would merely say "white". China these days is composed of a multitude of original cultures and peoples, some of whom thousands of years ago were considered simply as "barbarians". Perhaps in the future when Earth feels it is one culture, or superculture, one nation... we'd merely be racist against off-worlders.

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folder icon   01-13-2008, 02:08 AM
Post #30
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B~E your inability to understand others is maddening...


Hmmhmm. Ya know what else is maddening? The time it toke you to "debase" yourself and actualy elaborate on your argument. Sorry for dragging you this deep into this murky discussion.
Quote:

So yes, there might be some link, but I don't think you have to illiminate their pride in their ancestry to solve the current problem of racism. Now, this "exclusive social identity" (not ancestral identity), that you seem to like is a hurdle in the way of creating a more equal populace. It's not a root cause, but it is still a hurdle, so it can't be dismissed. Other causes have to do with general trends.

Gypsies in Slovakia, statistically, take more social welfare programs, engage in more illegal activities, have more health problems, and typically take less care of their homes, possessions, and themselves. Every Slovak I've met feels angry about gypsies for these reasons.

I'd like to know how you can separate an collective ancestral identity and an a collective identity that is exclusive. By definition, if the coherence of your group is assured by beliefs that have roots in your history and other elements such as language or even ethnicity, how can a group preserve itself without discriminating against others? Or without assimilating them?

Quebec woulnt be a francophone nation anymore if we accepted immigrants that speak english. We had to discriminate according to their language, because we want to remain a nation based on ancestral element of language. I doubt one goes without the other. Ultrapunk makes a good case for the "diversity trumps specificity"' argument, we might return to it later.

You have a strange way of putting your argument. First, you say than ancestral identity isnt a cause of racism. Then, you say that their exclusive collective identity is, partly, a cause. But like I said, I'd like to know hwo you differenciate the two. Then, you name a dozen things that are wrong with gypsies, that have nothing to do with the Slovaks specificaly (unless im wrong here). Even the segregation you mention is based on poverty. Honestly, in this case, this just seem like a social class problem that overlarp above two distinct ethnic group. In my humble opinion, this is more about economics than anything else.

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folder icon   01-13-2008, 01:00 PM
Post #31
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But then why hasn't their lot changed in the last 80 years? It's been that long since WW2, and 20 years since the fall of Communism in Slovakia. Why are whites doing so much better?

You asked this: "I'd like to know how you can separate an collective ancestral identity and an a collective identity that is exclusive."

Through education. At an early age, when most school kids are getting the sunny, socially acceptable version of their history, make sure it includes the history of gypsies, and in a favorable light. Dwell on the positive aspects of their culture, and the many sorrows their people have faced - especially persecution in Russia and from Germany under Hitler. You might also get some educated gypsies to write these chapters, to make sure a fair and accurate story is told. It could be that this already takes place in schools. I'll find out when Andrew's older. The main idea is to see the good in others, and to accept their history as part of yours.

A country and its history can be bigger than just one ethnicity.

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folder icon   02-03-2008, 03:25 AM
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Ethnicity and race are not the same things.

An ethnic group or ethnicity is a group of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry. Ethnic identity often arises thanks to recognition by others as a distinct group and by common cultural, linguistic, religious, or behavioural

The term race refers to the concept of dividing people into populations or groups on the basis of various sets of characteristics and beliefs about common ancestry. The most widely used human racial categories are based on visible traits (especially skin color, cranial or facial features and hair texture)

Now those are some of the sillist definitions I could find but they do. Sort of. Ethnicity is (Identity with or membership in a particular national, or cultural group and observance of that group's customs, beliefs, and language) more or less all about culture. Race has little to do with culture at all and much more to do with how others see you.

And no America is no more or less racist then many other countries, they are far more Conservative compared to most others (yes I am only talking about 'western' countries) This could and most likely would lead many to vote aganst a female or black person simply to limit change. And also what would the rest of the world think?, the most powerful country in the world ruled by a women or a black man? never

As for the most racist country I have ever been too (and I have been to many) that would be the one I now sit in. Good old Australia, you wouldnt understand just how so. And 99% of the time they dont even relise that what they are saying is racist and has utterly no grounding in any sorta fact what so ever. It is kinda part of their culture to be so.

Anyway, the real problem with Slovakia and other countries like that is that they used to be commies, I thought you would know that so and so...

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folder icon   02-04-2008, 12:51 PM
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I'm starting to like Obama more and more. Seen a few speeches and watched a few interviews he seems amazing and the same with Michelle.

This is the chance you got to redeem your selves you imperialist totalitarian scum.

PS: Reminds me. Actually a bunch of my friends lost the hope in man kind when you elected G.W. Bush again and some lost it when the U.S. didn't join the Kyoto.

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folder icon   02-06-2008, 07:22 AM
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Who's Michelle?

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folder icon   02-06-2008, 08:06 PM
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Obies wife.

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