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folder icon   01-21-2009, 01:16 PM
OMG full zerg gameplay video Post #1
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Finally:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GpRCvLr79A

I bet they will post this on the official site soon on HD

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folder icon   01-28-2009, 12:43 PM
Post #2
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The only thing that bugs me is that SC2 looks exactly like Warcraft 3 but with Starcraft units.
I dunno if that's a good or bad thing.

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folder icon   01-31-2009, 08:53 AM
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See, SC2 looks NOTHING like War3 to me. Although, to clarify, are you talking about the graphic style, or the way it seems to play, or what?

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folder icon   01-31-2009, 09:04 AM
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That Zerg player seemed hella scared to use units he didn't know.

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folder icon   02-02-2009, 11:18 PM
Post #5
food

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Planet_Buster
See, SC2 looks NOTHING like War3 to me. Although, to clarify, are you talking about the graphic style, or the way it seems to play, or what?

Yeah I just mean the graphics style obviously it's a comletely different game different units, resources, etc but just the whole 3D looking units and the terrain and everything reminds me completely of War3 the way units are animated and everything.

I think it's just because the original SC is like 2.5D and War3 was a dramatic change to the SC/War2 style graphics and now SC2 is using the same kinda style so it's just suprising because I've owned vanilla SC since it came out and I've probably played it more than any other game.

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folder icon   02-03-2009, 07:06 AM
Post #6
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Keep in mind that these are some very good players....pro gamers, I believe. Though the Zerg player is a pro War3 player, as opposed to a pro BW player, which is what Yellow is.

Being pros, they don't usually follow the development of games as closely as we lesser-skilled fans do, and so they actually may not know how to properly use a particular unit.

Also, this video has been on the Blizzcon website for quite some time now
http://www.blizzard.com/blizzcon/video/archive.xml

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folder icon   02-03-2009, 03:42 PM
Post #7
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My problem with SC2 is that other companies have made such streamlined advancements in the RTS genre - namely Relic - that it seems pointless to remake a classic with a new graphics engine, without following or expanding upon any of those innovations. It seems like a desperate money-grab from a company that, frankly, doesn't need it.

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folder icon   02-03-2009, 11:23 PM
Post #8
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That's a good point I never even thought about it but there's a high likelyhood that after spending the past few years on just WoW Blizzard has become the gayest company on earth so SC2 will probably be a shitheap but hey let's hope not.

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folder icon   02-04-2009, 07:37 AM
Post #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorax
My problem with SC2 is that other companies have made such streamlined advancements in the RTS genre - namely Relic - that it seems pointless to remake a classic with a new graphics engine, without following or expanding upon any of those innovations. It seems like a desperate money-grab from a company that, frankly, doesn't need it.


The thing is, a huge part of what made StarCraft what it is is the complex unit interactions. It doesn't utilise a relatively straight-forward rock-paper-scissors approach like a lot of other games. Instead, each unit fills a particular tactical niche.

For example, for a long time, the Terran Thor in SC2 was a heavy assault unit, and had a 'barrage' ability that could shell enemy positions from long range. But the thing is, they didn't want to just make a 'higher-tech siege tank', so the Thor was eventually re-envisaged as a primarily ground-to-air support unit.

The tricky thing about making any sequel is that you want to game to be familiar enough to be recognised AS a sequel, yet not so similar that it doesn't add anything new. I suppose that's more true in SC2's case, since it's a 'direct' sequel as opposed to a sequel like War3 which had vastly different gameplay. Because of StarCraft's unique trait of being about the tactical niches these units fill and the way you use them (as opposed to simply building a unit which outright counters another like in the AoE series), I feel that once you shake up what units are in each of the armies in StarCraft 2, the resulting tactics will be sufficiently different to warrant a sequel, while maintaining familiar gameplay.

Like with all RTS games of worth, the depth and difference from other games often only become apparent after some time of playing. Even the addition of cliff-hopping units like the Reaper or the Colossus can really make a difference to the way you approach a game.

I have nothing against Relic. I played tons of both Dawn of War and Company of Heroes (not a whole lot of Homeworld, I admit ). But my point is that I wouldn't call what they're doing 'advancements'. Sure they've brought new ideas to the RTS table, created new kinds of RTS games, but that doesn't mean that what they've done is the 'natural evolution' of the RTS genre.

In fact, I cringe whenever some guy writes: "Oh, Dawn of War 2 does away with tedious base-building" (or words to that effect), as if macro in an RTS is something that nobody really wants but is a necessary evil that no one could do anything about until now. PHOOEY. The Age of Empires series was BUILT around the thrill of building an empire - a proper empire! Seeing tons of villages milling back and forth, watching your town grow and spread across the map. No other RTS (not even Rise of Nations, for some reason) has really captured that epic feeling of empire-growth I get when I played Age of Kings or Age of Empires III. And with Ensemble Studios closed down, I'm very worried that I won't be seeing more of these kinds of games.

The RTS genre of computer gaming is, in my opinion, more complex than most if not all of the rest. But I love it in all its complexity. I love WarCraft with its micro-intensive focus, the Age series with its focus on macromanagement and resourcing, StarCraft which is the closest game I can think of which rewards both micro and macro players equally, and all the others like Rise of Nations and Company of Heroes.

The genre is so diverse that to me, saying: "Alright, no more 'Age-of-Empires-style' rts games" is like almost saying: "ok, no more horror movies". You better believe I still want to see new movies being made - of EVERY genre, and I don't want to see a particular one just die out.

I love how unique StarCraft's gameplay is in that the emphasis was both on micro AND macro. I don't think there's been a mainstream RTS which can boast that particular kind of gameplay since the original StarCraft itself. It's a magical game for sure, but the community's largely died. Sure there are fans, but unless you're Korean or follow the professional scene, few people go online anymore

Now, StarCraft 2 is coming along, promising that it'll do its darnest to capture that magic of making both micro and macro relevant, despite all of the user-interface changes such as auto-mining. It's time for a 'new generation' (so to speak) to discover this particular kind of RTS gaming, and for old-timers who enjoyed it to come back and find themselves feeling both comforted by the familiarity with the gameplay and intrigued by the changes they will have to learn and adapt to.

Bioshock is a phenomenal game, but it didn't add ANYTHING new to the FPS genre and yet people give it 90%+. It certainly deserves the grade, but it deserves that grade for its brilliant storytelling, incredible atmosphere, and solid execution of tried-and-true FPS gameplay. That's all I want in an RTS, too. I don't always need some new gimmick, I just want a 'good' RTS game, even if it doesn't really bring a whole lot of new stuff to the table. As evidenced by Red Alert 3 or CnC 3, simply making a 'good' RTS can be hard enough, and I consider it a feat to be admired for one to be made and more so when trying to do what SC2 is doing.

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folder icon   02-08-2009, 02:24 PM
Post #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -G R U N T-

As evidenced by Red Alert 3 or CnC 3, simply making a 'good' RTS can be hard enough.



Ouch!

Its painful because its true!

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folder icon   02-08-2009, 04:44 PM
Post #11
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Grunt, I stand absolutely corrected. On further reflection, perhaps I was generalizing my own evolution within the RTS genre as evolution of the genre itself. I found over time that I prefer micro-tactics and dislike base building (in the RTS genre at least - I love empire-building in 4x games), and so I began to favour Relic's approach more and more as they developed in that direction. But, you're right, there are many ways an RTS can be realized, and not every title need bring something new to the table. I think I've just become cynical toward Blizzard, and so I saw a money-grab (which is true) where I could have seen an intelligent and appropriate sequel (which you've shown also to be true).

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folder icon   02-10-2009, 01:14 AM
Post #12
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Wow, I had mentally prepared myself for a long, drawn-out argument (for such things usually happen when I'm trying to convince people of things), so you have made me very pleasantly surprised today .

And you get a cookie if you actually read all that - you must have highlighted all those walls of red text to actually make it readable .

Here's are a couple of stories I like to tell very often: do you remember Zaknafien? Used to be a forumer here? He would kick my ass at WarCraft 3 almost all the time. I would literally only win maybe one out of every ten games with him. However, as soon as we started playing Age of Mythology, the tables turned and I could reliably 'own' him, even if I *wasn't* playing Egyptians .

However, those two games are pretty far on either end of the micro/macro spectrum. Because my micro skills aren't very good (I tend to fumble and panic in a pitched battle), Zak owns me in War3, but because I'm better at managing my economy, resourcing, and keeping tabs on my empire at large, I can outproduce and outmanuever him in Age of Mythology.

StarCraft is really something special. One of the other newsposters on sclive - Alethios - and I have played many games of Broodwar together. His micro is better than mine, but his macro isn't. And StarCraft's the only game I can think of where we can really see these two different kinds of RTS players shine. Because of my superior macro, I'm able to keep my workers idle for a shorter period of time than him, and keep churning them out more efficiently, too. Naturally, this means I generally make more money than he does and can produce more units. However, because his battlefield micro is better, he can often save his units where I might lose a lot to mis-micro against a Reaver scarab. His superior micro lets him run circles around my army, whereas I try to win through brute force of economy and superior production .

Now this is true to an extent in almost all RTS games, but the way StarCraft accomodates and rewards both kinds of players is so much more pronounced than in any other game I know of.

Heck, some StarCraft players are well-known just for their macro skills. iloveoov was, after all, also known as the 'cheater Terran' for his insane macro skills which allowed him to conjure up entire armies seemingly out of thin air.

Of course, a lot of what made macro so difficult and rewarding in StarCraft was the lack of user interface functions such as resources being rallypoint-able (with workers auto-mining once they pop out of your command centre), or the idle worker button. How StarCraft 2 will manage to actually reward macro players just as equally as it currently rewards micro players (without sacrificing the 'modern RTS interface functions') is an ongoing problem that Blizzard is trying to solve.

If you've been following SC2's development, you'll know how seriously Blizzard is taking the macro issue, and they've tried all sorts of stuff such as having Vespene Geysers start with less gas, but are replenishable and have a cooldown timer before they are refilled. The Zerg Queen in her current incarnation also rewards the macro player - her 'Spawn Mutant Larvae' (if it's still called that) creates mutant larvae that don't exist on a timed life (so you can stockpile them) and morph into any Zerg creature one heck of a lot faster than normal larvae do, giving a production advantage to the Zerg player who bothers to use her.

Last I heard, the Terran Command Center has a cooldown ability to call in a 'big scv' which harvests more effectively than its smaller counterparts, and the Protoss can construct 'Dark Pylons' which, when activated (also with a cooldown), increases the mining rate of nearby probes.

I must admit, these last two abilities seem rather shoehorned into SC2 to increase macro, and I don't know how effective they're actually going to be, but we'll see. I'm sad to say that community suggestions - short of adding a third resource - haven't been as 'good' >_<. And with Blizzard already having announced that they've fixed a date for the Beta (although that date has yet to be revealed), I think it's safe to say that we're not going to see any big changes.

EDIT: ooh, here's an interesting badly-translated quote from some French person who was at the Paris ESL:

Quote:
I will not speak more macro Xordiah since said that many things happen on this side ...

I'm hoping Blizzard still has some surprises before the Beta :].

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folder icon   02-10-2009, 02:16 PM
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I did indeed read your red wall. Since I'm not actively following SC2's development (actually the only game I am following is Empire: Total War, which gives you a pretty accurate picture of my gaming preferences), it's nice to have someone sum up what's been going on.

Starcraft 1 was indeed a masterpiece of RTS in its day and, at least for power-gamers, to this day. Although I'm not particularly hopeful that lightning will strike twice (even Warcraft III, which was an excellent game, was criticized basically for not being Starcraft), we have seen Blizzard scrap projects in the past that they deemed unworthy. Since they're continuing this one to its conclusion, and since they have too much experience and money to make any large mistakes, there's a good chance that it will be fun. Will it be the global phenomenon that Starcraft was? I'm not so sure, but I guess we'll find out. At least the campaigns should be fun.

Edit: Oh, and I do remember Zak quite well. Specifically, I remember him handing me my ass in Warcraft III time and time again. I'm pretty sure he was part of the CoW in its Warcraft III hayday.

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folder icon   02-10-2009, 11:22 PM
Post #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorax
I did indeed read your red wall. Since I'm not actively following SC2's development (actually the only game I am following is Empire: Total War, which gives you a pretty accurate picture of my gaming preferences), it's nice to have someone sum up what's been going on.

Starcraft 1 was indeed a masterpiece of RTS in its day and, at least for power-gamers, to this day. Although I'm not particularly hopeful that lightning will strike twice (even Warcraft III, which was an excellent game, was criticized basically for not being Starcraft), we have seen Blizzard scrap projects in the past that they deemed unworthy. Since they're continuing this one to its conclusion, and since they have too much experience and money to make any large mistakes, there's a good chance that it will be fun. Will it be the global phenomenon that Starcraft was? I'm not so sure, but I guess we'll find out. At least the campaigns should be fun.

Edit: Oh, and I do remember Zak quite well. Specifically, I remember him handing me my ass in Warcraft III time and time again. I'm pretty sure he was part of the CoW in its Warcraft III hayday.


Don't lose faith in Blizzard just because they haven't released a new game in 4 1/2 years (WoW expansions not included ). It is easy to look over Starcraft and say "meh the first one was fun, maybe the second one will be". I think this reflection comes from the nature of the current gaming market, where you have, literally, half-baked games that have a total single player hour count of 4-6 hours, and then you're done. The only real good titles to recently come out would be things like Crysis, Bioshock, Fallout 3, and a couple of others. But for the most part, developers (I'm looking at you EA) are just pumping out recycled horribleness.

While Blizzard has been working on WoW continously for the past 4 years, I think Starcraft 2 will live up to and challenge the legend of Starcraft. All Blizzard sequels have managed to capture the magic and spirit of their predecessors and push an old series in a different direction. Look at how vibrant the online communities are for their older games, I don't see things changing any time soon.

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folder icon   02-11-2009, 03:56 AM
Post #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorax
even Warcraft III, which was an excellent game, was criticized basically for not being Starcraft.

And in other circles, criticized for being too much like StarCraft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Crusader~
But for the most part, developers (I'm looking at you EA) are just pumping out recycled horribleness.

This is kind of unfair because EA's new management has been working really hard to produce better games such as Dead Space, Mirror's Edge, etc. and have a new policy not to meddle in the companies they own anymore, essentially having become a really good company and not the Evil Empire it once was. And while they're doing this they're actually losing money.

Which I guess makes the lesson here that it isn't that companies are releasing half-baked games all the time, it's that people actually buy more half-baked games than good games because gamers are just plain stupid. -_-'

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