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folder icon   06-02-2008, 07:16 AM
Post #71
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Hmm, yeah I missed the point, I thought he was calling me a hypocrite or some such. But, in that case you all missed the point that my wise decisions don't need to be everyone's wise decisions - what I or you consider common sense shouldn't be made law, because laws can't just revolve around a few people's wishes. Anyone who comes to America should have the right to speak in whatever language they want, and making a language official is either pointless, or a step towards limiting information to one language. It also goes against the original purpose of our country, which is to accept all peoples.

Furthermore, Slovakia doesn't have just one language in its borders. There are also people who speak Hungarian and Gypsy, and this also creates many contentions here. After all, all three language groups have lived here for hundreds if not thousands of years. So, why should any have to give up one language for another?

You could say they should learn all three and then speak the one they like, but, in practice when this happens, people may or may not switch to the one language that's common, and then the old tongue is lost, and the culture with it.

Part of the problem is that Slovaks know that some Hungarians still want to own their country. Learning Hungarian (which used to be the enforced language, any other being punishable) could be seen as moving towards reunification.

Another part of the problem is the refusal to appreciate gypsy as a valid language to be taught in schools. They think of it like we do Ebonics, even though it's a completely different language.

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folder icon   06-02-2008, 05:23 PM
Post #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
Gosh, using the fact that they're the majority to legitimize something. I can smell the gaz chambers already.

Seeing as how you are allowed to learn french, i dont see why you have to attack my ideology. My liberalism is your gain, but you can rant on how unfair it is all day long, yet at the end of it all, you go back to your french-canadian culture. We don't perform cultural genocide, we don't force english onto you, we don't ban any french-canadian culture, or suppress the quebec peoples, instead the majority of our "equalization" payments just go towards funding quebec socialist services.

It could have been just as easy to bomb quebec until there was no french left and repopulate it. And hey, we're the majority so fuck you.

Oh yeah, and your mother is fat.

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folder icon   06-02-2008, 07:23 PM
Post #73
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"but I shouldn't be forced to learn a non-native language."

Yes you should. You don't know your own language until you learn another - Noam Chomsky.


Furthermore, spanish is possibly more naitive than english where you are.

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folder icon   06-02-2008, 08:39 PM
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I believe we've moved away from "native language" and moved on to "majority language" or whatever you want to call it, which Mexican isn't.

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folder icon   06-02-2008, 08:49 PM
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No, Spanish is.

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folder icon   06-03-2008, 12:30 AM
Post #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk
Seeing as how you are allowed to learn french, i dont see why you have to attack my ideology. My liberalism is your gain, but you can rant on how unfair it is all day long, yet at the end of it all, you go back to your french-canadian culture. We don't perform cultural genocide, we don't force english onto you, we don't ban any french-canadian culture, or suppress the quebec peoples, instead the majority of our "equalization" payments just go towards funding quebec socialist services.

It could have been just as easy to bomb quebec until there was no french left and repopulate it. And hey, we're the majority so fuck you.

Oh yeah, and your mother is fat.


Talk to me again about how we can afford to diversify the history taught in class, when youre ignorant of the efforts the British deployed to try and assimilate the French. They realised it was realistically impossible, so they gave up eventualy, which they did out of pure pragmatism, not out of some sort of englightened sense of social pluralism and cultural diversity. So dont talk to me about how I'm supposed to be gratefull for some dreamed up English belevolance, because we owe the distinctiveness of our culture to nobody but ourselves. Your crappy exemple doesnt even adress my argument about majority right either.

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folder icon   06-03-2008, 06:02 AM
Post #77
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Originally Posted by Kjell Thusaud
No, Spanish is.

No, that's not true either.

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folder icon   06-03-2008, 07:18 AM
Post #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
Talk to me again about how we can afford to diversify the history taught in class, when youre ignorant of the efforts the British deployed to try and assimilate the French. They realised it was realistically impossible, so they gave up eventualy, which they did out of pure pragmatism, not out of some sort of englightened sense of social pluralism and cultural diversity. So dont talk to me about how I'm supposed to be gratefull for some dreamed up English belevolance, because we owe the distinctiveness of our culture to nobody but ourselves. Your crappy exemple doesnt even adress my argument about majority right either.

Bull shit, the English did it to Acadia and could have very well done it to you. They didn't because they trusted you more than they trusted most any one else. The Maritimes were full of people with greater ties to Boston and New England than the crown, Ontario was full of American immigrants of dubious loyalty, and French Canada was dominated by a conservative elite who favoured a British monarch over American Republicanism or the godless revolutionaries of France. All they wanted was the Catholic church respected, which it was more than anywhere else in the empire, and in return they became loyal subjects of the crown. There was no valiant fight to save an endangered culture and British pragmatism had nothing to do with it, nationalism didn't exist and no one gave a damn about language. They only cared that people were loyal subjects, and the Canadians were more loyal than any one else in North America, or just about anywhere else in the Empire.

Your idea here of respecting the majority language follows the Quebec nationalist tradition of pleasantly ignoring reality. It is great that the majority language of Canada being English doesn't matter at all, its the constituent parts IE Quebec that matter, or that the majority language of the west Island being English doesn't matter, because Quebec is indivisible.

In any case, you're speaking from the notion that your culture is at risk and that extraordinary measures need to be taken to defend it. This might very well be true, but you know that no such situation exists in California. The entire power structure of the state exists in English. The fact that parallel media establishments exist that use Spanish is not a threat to the English culture. No one is forced to learn Spanish to succeed, unless success is measured in a person's ability to fluently converse with their maid and gardener. Sure some people bitch that they can't get a job in Miami because they don't know Spanish, but the truth is there are very few jobs that require bilingualism in the US and those that are bitching just don't have the skills to compete with any one in any field. They're failures trying to scape goat immigrants instead of accepting the fact that they're to incompetent to compete with every one else.

In any case, not directed at B~E whose answer would be obvious but instead at others, should Puerto Rico be forced to become English if it were to vote to become a state? Maybe if the Americans didn't want Spanish speakers, they should have thought of that before they went and conquered all that Spanish speaking territory.

To broaden the topic past immigration. Yes the US could afford to have a social safety net along the lines of Europe and Canada. The fact that it would be much larger than any other doesn't matter a bit. What the US can't afford is to continue to support and develop a military capable of dominating the globe. As other powers emerge the US will be forced to spend ever greater levels of its GDP on the military, to the exclusion of social programs and infrastructure, which will eventually harm the American economy's ability to compete. Maintaining the empire requires this military, but the expense will be the doom of the empire. I do not believe the US will be able to continue its hegemony over the world in light of Chinese development and a resurgent Russia flush with petroleum based wealth. It will likely have to give up is ambitions in the old world just to maintain its position in the Americas. Reliance will be on Canadian and Venezuelan oil as the Middle East simply becomes not worth it and Africa falls under the sway of China. Russia will do well as the only power that will benefit from high energy prices.

The problem with McCain is that he will attempt to maintain the status quo, which will weaken the US in the long term and possibly lead to an early collapse. What the US needs to do is invest heavily in green infrastructure, mass transit in particular, and then shift the entire development pattern to a more sustainable one. Denser cities that can exist with little oil use will be required so that the limited resources the country can rely on and control (principally those in Canada) can be used for necessary agriculture without bankrupting the state. Trying to maintain control over resources in the middle east and else where will only blow valuable time and money that are required to adjust to the new reality.

On the issue of spelling, the Firefox browser, which is quickly becoming the go to browser, comes standard with a spell check, if you really have trouble think about switching.

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folder icon   06-07-2008, 10:32 PM
Post #79
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Originally Posted by so and so
Hmm, yeah I missed the point, I thought he was calling me a hypocrite or some such.

Good you realized the point! I'm rather benign when it comes down to it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
But, in that case you all missed the point that my wise decisions don't need to be everyone's wise decisions - what I or you consider common sense shouldn't be made law, because laws can't just revolve around a few people's wishes. Anyone who comes to America should have the right to speak in whatever language they want, and making a language official is either pointless, or a step towards limiting information to one language. It also goes against the original purpose of our country, which is to accept all peoples.


I understand the rhetoric of "everyone do what they want" and that is a fine and dandy topic for another time, one that is somewhat self-defeating.

ANYWHO I really do not see what is wrong with having an official language. I think having an official language for each country, whether it be the U.S., Sweden, Turkey, or Malaysia is intrinsically protective of each countries respective heritages. Language can arguably be synonymous with culture. I do not think anyone is saying to limit all speaking within a country to one singular language to enforce conformity, but rather than an official language simplifies and creates a society more efficient. For instance, I speak both English and German, and I very much enjoy talking with some of my friends in German or visiting Germany and using my knowledge there to better communicate with the people.

Look to the problem now, virtually all public signage (road signs, billboards, etc.) are in English. Thus unofficially, English is still wholly represented, why not make it official?

Officializing (I made up a word today!) a language does not mean that all other languages are banned, but they are just not used in mainstream things such as: public schools, road signs, supermarkets, government functions, etc. I should hope that it is quite plain to see that having an official language would simplify all these functions of public interaction for ALL people rather than having two, three, or seventy-eight different languages for each and everything to accommodate all people. Government isn't (and shouldn't be) about accommodation, but about serving the majority's statement, while carefully balancing it against the minority's interest. I believe that through an official language, a government and/or public body can better serve the values upheld by the people.

Languages outside the "official" would not destroyed, they just are not utilized in a majority public for the sake of simplicity.

Also, accepting all peoples is only a recent goal of American ideology, but I do not think even this modern thought really has the inclusion of all native languages in mind.

Either way, the language discussion is much more interesting than anything about this overdramatized presidential race.

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folder icon   06-08-2008, 05:07 AM
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America's different because our heritage consists of many languages - hundreds even, counting all the native american tongues.

you can't have this "efficiency" without some move towards conformity and loss of rights.

There are so many other ways to make the US govt more efficient, such as simplifying our labyrintine tax and legal codes.

I would also argue that making English official wouldn't make anything more efficient, if more people can't understand their rights so far as welfare, legal rights in trials/arrests, signing contracts, etc. Sounds like it'd make our country less efficient.

"Government isn't (and shouldn't be) about accommodation, but about serving the majority's statement, while carefully balancing it against the minority's interest."

serving and accomodating are synonymous, and no, the role of the government is to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

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folder icon   06-08-2008, 06:13 AM
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and no, the role of the government is to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

You are confusing government and some sort of human rights watchdog organization.

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folder icon   06-08-2008, 08:06 AM
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You are confusing government and some sort of human rights watchdog organization.

Took the words out of my mouth. The government doesn't babysit people.

Maybe I just can't see your point so and so, but I just do not see how making English an official language in the United States would not simplify issues. The vast majority of Americans speak it as their first language (many their only) and any "free spirited" changes to the inclusion of other languages would just bog down every form of communication.

Communication between people=good. People misunderstanding each other through the barriers of language=bad.

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folder icon   06-08-2008, 10:36 AM
Post #83
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Took the words out of my mouth. The government doesn't babysit people.

You mean the government shouldn't babysit people. They do anyways.

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folder icon   06-08-2008, 05:25 PM
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I guess that depends on what government you are talking about, most don't.

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folder icon   06-08-2008, 09:12 PM
Post #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
Talk to me again about how we can afford to diversify the history taught in class, when youre ignorant of the efforts the British deployed to try and assimilate the French. They realised it was realistically impossible, so they gave up eventualy, which they did out of pure pragmatism, not out of some sort of englightened sense of social pluralism and cultural diversity. So dont talk to me about how I'm supposed to be gratefull for some dreamed up English belevolance, because we owe the distinctiveness of our culture to nobody but ourselves. Your crappy exemple doesnt even adress my argument about majority right either.

I think we can diversify our history we learn in our schools, considering we only take one measly course in it and only have a few hundred years to learn.

I was not referring to the colonial era, i was talking about the dawn of multiculturalism in Canada. When the FLQ were busy mailing bombs and assassinating people, it would have been just as easy to launch all out war on the Quebecois as it was to include dissidents into our government. I never said you should be grateful for anything, nor that the "English" were benevolant. In fact, being grateful to not get bombed back to the stone age is illogical. No, what i'm saying is that arguing in favour of majority rule means an end to the Quebecois french-canadian identity. That is what perplexes me about your side in this issue. You, from a province that opted out of rights from the Charter of Rights and Freedoms to preserve aspects of the quebec identity, argue that you should be crushed? That makes no sense.

My crappy argument? I guess i should argue that all french should be eliminated, only english taught in quebec and any who disagree should be arrested and thrown in jail indefinitely. Should there be any civil disobedience, we should deploy the military and crush all opposition. All parti quebecois and bloc quebecois members should be arrested and thrown in jail indefinitely as terrorists. There will be mass surveillance, a country wide spy programme intiated to monitor all francophones.

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folder icon   06-09-2008, 09:09 AM
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Government can and should babysit, and as a substitute teacher, I've helped do it. Schools get kids as young as 4 years old - practically babies.

Helping people who speak spanish or other languages to maintain civil liberties like I mentioned above is not babysitting.

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folder icon   06-09-2008, 05:43 PM
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amagaaad! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9izhjnaLa3M

Your going to vote for THIS guy?

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folder icon   06-12-2008, 05:57 AM
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alot of that's out of context. We never get to hear the questions. McCain talk's fairly intelligently, and I have no fear of that. What he's talking about has more to do with history than current policy, but still, you're right, I wouldn't vote for him.

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folder icon   06-12-2008, 04:00 PM
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If nothing else he look like a serial pope-rapist.

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folder icon   06-13-2008, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spliff Smoking Lab Chimp
Bull shit, the English did it to Acadia and could have very well done it to you. They didn't because they trusted you more than they trusted most any one else. The Maritimes were full of people with greater ties to Boston and New England than the crown, Ontario was full of American immigrants of dubious loyalty, and French Canada was dominated by a conservative elite who favoured a British monarch over American Republicanism or the godless revolutionaries of France. All they wanted was the Catholic church respected, which it was more than anywhere else in the empire, and in return they became loyal subjects of the crown. There was no valiant fight to save an endangered culture and British pragmatism had nothing to do with it, nationalism didn't exist and no one gave a damn about language. They only cared that people were loyal subjects, and the Canadians were more loyal than any one else in North America, or just about anywhere else in the Empire.


That doesnt really contradict my point. The British didnt ethnically cleans the French because it was perfectly possible to govern them as it were. Thats pragmatism to me.

Nationalism didnt exist back then, but collective identities sure as hell mattered. If you look up documents like Lord Durham's Report, you can see that they understood the French as a different race - race having a different, milder connotation back then, but which clearly indicate that they saw each other as distinct, mutualy exclusive groups.

Immigration from other british colonies on the continent and from Britain, coupled with the political domination of Upper Canada and the economical superiority of the anglophones over the francophones, placed the francophones, understood as an homogenous collective subject, in a precarious situation, a situation that arguably still last to this day, altough the problems are different today than back then.

But yeah, there never was any official policy of ethnic cleaning set up by the English to assimilate the French. Only a de facto rapport the force that always disadvantaged the francophones collective identity, who's autonomy had to be won and preserved. But to come back to my original point, which was against ultrapunk, there was no policy of assimilation because it was easier to govern the French, it was just more pragmatic to do so.
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Your idea here of respecting the majority language follows the Quebec nationalist tradition of pleasantly ignoring reality. It is great that the majority language of Canada being English doesn't matter at all, its the constituent parts IE Quebec that matter, or that the majority language of the west Island being English doesn't matter, because Quebec is indivisible.


I'm not sure what you mean there. So what if French-canadians exist as a minority in an english-speaking country?
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In any case, you're speaking from the notion that your culture is at risk and that extraordinary measures need to be taken to defend it. This might very well be true, but you know that no such situation exists in California. The entire power structure of the state exists in English. The fact that parallel media establishments exist that use Spanish is not a threat to the English culture. No one is forced to learn Spanish to succeed, unless success is measured in a person's ability to fluently converse with their maid and gardener. Sure some people bitch that they can't get a job in Miami because they don't know Spanish, but the truth is there are very few jobs that require bilingualism in the US and those that are bitching just don't have the skills to compete with any one in any field. They're failures trying to scape goat immigrants instead of accepting the fact that they're to incompetent to compete with every one else.


Its all about demographic. In a liberal democracy, the language of the "power structure" has to reflect the language used by the people who will navigate in the power structure. As the number of hispanics increase in a certain location, and as their social mobility increase, then yeah, your power structure will have to accomodate a change of language to remain efficient.

But this is assuming that the hispanics havent learned english at all, and that your power structure is flexible enough to accomodate another language, another collective identity. But America is caracterised by a decentralised democratic political structure, so I believe that if the demographic pressure is strong enough, a number of hispanics who havent learned engish can make a change of language happen in a certain location. Its possible. But to be possible, you'd need a lot of hispanics who dont speak english, and I just dont have the numbers of anglophones in the hispanic community.

However, concerning the possibility that a group can affect change through demographic pressure, its because its effectively within the realm of the possible that people like Kjell Thusaud are acting like reactionaries and white nativists, they're simply sensible to the perenity of their collective identity, to its place and statut within the power strucutre. They realise that things can change, they're taking into account what happen when you mix mass immigration and mass illegal immigration with subreplacement birthrates, coupled with a multicultural environment. You can begin to percieve change as threatening. But its all about how you chose to perceive the situation.

Its nice how you admit that spanish effectivly became prominence in Miami, that hispanic demographics really caused change in the power structure, but then you chose to brush it off by changing the scales to the entire United States.
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To broaden the topic past immigration. Yes the US could afford to have a social safety net along the lines of Europe and Canada. The fact that it would be much larger than any other doesn't matter a bit. What the US can't afford is to continue to support and develop a military capable of dominating the globe. As other powers emerge the US will be forced to spend ever greater levels of its GDP on the military, to the exclusion of social programs and infrastructure, which will eventually harm the American economy's ability to compete. Maintaining the empire requires this military, but the expense will be the doom of the empire. I do not believe the US will be able to continue its hegemony over the world in light of Chinese development and a resurgent Russia flush with petroleum based wealth. It will likely have to give up is ambitions in the old world just to maintain its position in the Americas. Reliance will be on Canadian and Venezuelan oil as the Middle East simply becomes not worth it and Africa falls under the sway of China. Russia will do well as the only power that will benefit from high energy prices.


America's position in the international system wont matter much in the future. It wont need to maintain an empire forever either. Without being false, I think you rely too much on states in your analysis. By doing so, you imagine a future where the decline of the hegemon and the increasing competition between states will be the primary factors generating instability. Personally, I imagine the future of the international system to be much more stable than it is right now, or, if it isnt stable, the instability wont come from competition between states. Because states will come together to share the burden of having to stabilize the international order.

You can understand an hegemon as being a factor of stability in the system, but in the futur, its role as a stabilisator will be increasingly useless, because the international system carries a number of normative traits that will be embed into the emerging powers, making themselves pillar of stability.

Those normative traits include principaly the acceptance of liberal capitalism and of its underlying rules (deregulation of the financial system, compliance with international trade regulations, increase of commercial ties between countries), the acceptance of your position in the international division of labor, and to a lesser degree, the acceptance of international law and the acceptance of the ideology of human rights and democracy.

Emerging powers will have to accept those rules if they want to increase their participation in the international system, a participation that is necessary if you want to increase your position as a great power. But having accepted those rules, States like China or Russia will realise that they can't do nothing more than to work for the stability and the perenity of the system in which they became predominant. If this is true, then the system will remain stable, as long as states will continue to accept to play by its rules. I believe this will remain true as long as no state will be capable of generating an ideology (communism, nazism... islamism? Maybe Fukuyama was right) that will be in a position of to compete with the ideology of liberal capitalism that has fully invested the international system after 1991.

Anyway, this is how my theory goes. Its systemic in its analysis, and rely heavily on neomarxism, but I think its worth something. Its flawed if you believe that States are mostly independant and are capable of affecting change on the system itself. But I believe its the opposite. The international system carry a normative power that affect the behavior of states, their perceived interest and the modality of their interaction with other states.

While states will remain fairly independant creatures, capable of competiting between each other like Spliff believe, they will have to accept the rules of the game imposed by the system, if they want to participate at all. And compliance with those rules imply that a state will have to work for the stability of the system. This is why as long as the international system is united under one more-or-less homogenous ideology, our future should be much more stable than our past. This is why America's relative position in the international system doesnt matter much. There are plenty of other states who will be happy to act as stabilisators and policeman against failed states, terrorism and international economical crisis.

Last edited by Black~Enthusiasm on 06-13-2008 at 02:04 PM.
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folder icon   07-16-2008, 06:18 AM
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Urin_BloodfaceII

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Ouch!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srbX26vp57c

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folder icon   07-16-2008, 03:06 PM
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Kjell Thusaud

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Micky Mouse on Crack

If it hadn't been for the french canada would proberbly have joined the United States.

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folder icon   07-30-2008, 06:41 PM
Post #93
Urin_BloodfaceII

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Anyway ... I forgot to do this a while ago ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jn8K8EA7-Q

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