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folder icon   07-13-2010, 09:43 PM
French vote to ban full veils Post #1
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10611398.stm

Suppression of human rights or liberation?

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europ....ban/index.html

The CNN article is interesting to me to see the wide variance in public opinion between European countries and the US.

Discuss!

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folder icon   07-13-2010, 10:04 PM
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Is the balaclava banned too?

This will probably just piss a couple people off and result in some fanatics doing something stupid in response. It's probably safer to lift the ban.

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folder icon   07-14-2010, 12:44 AM
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So, this ban exists for no reason than to oppress the Islamic religion(or I suppose any other religion that involves face veils)? Who the hell could support that?

Oh, right. The French.

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folder icon   07-14-2010, 02:42 AM
Post #4
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Oppressive.

French police going around handing out fines to muslim women and men because of the clothing they wear. Gee that doesn't sound similar at all to the Saudi morality police.

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folder icon   07-14-2010, 04:46 AM
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I feel conflicted. I know it's oppressing, but the ultimate goal is to emancipate oppressed Islamic women. Plus, there's the whole eye for an eye thing - how many western things are banned in Islamic countries over far worse punishment? Then that is canceled out by the whole "two wrongs don't make a right" thing, and you can't force emancipation on those who don't want it... but what if they do want it but are just too scared of their husbands and fathers and other me to say so? It's a difficult subject.

I think the proper thing to do is give everyone proper education to make them realize by themselves how dumb religion is, but this isn't even happening in quote civilized unquote western countries such as America so western society is setting a terrible example here.

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folder icon   07-14-2010, 03:36 PM
Post #6
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That's where your europeanness is coming off, where you are purporting your own cultural superiority. Nah just joking, i just hate dutch people. Anyway...

What is Canada?

Canada is me seeing a girl walking by with jeans, a tight t-shirt, on a super hot girl and she's got a veil on. Maybe she's a butterface, but that's called integration. You don't oppress them, they don't feel oppressed, the veil just becomes another fashion statement. Something is only oppressive if you're forced to do it or not do it.

Here you have men deciding something for women because why? Women can't think for themselves?

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folder icon   07-15-2010, 12:00 AM
Post #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk

Here you have men deciding something for women because why? Women can't think for themselves?


And I believe its pointed out in one of the poster articles that only a very minority feel oppressed by wearing veils...in fact the majority do it by choice in observance of their religious creed.

Personally I feel as it is an unnecessary targeting of a religious/ethnic (yes this is an ethnic issue as well) groups. Why? Because society HAS to be completely secular? It comes to the point where when you force people to conform to certain society standards that go beyond the accepted medium (e.g. killing people = bad) that this just becomes idiotic.

Lets not make men force women to wear viels. In fact viels are illegal! We will force people to conform to this! Problem fixed rite!? RAR!

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folder icon   07-15-2010, 05:46 AM
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If the purpouse is to emancipate women (won't comment further on that) then I think it will fail.

If the Saudis force people to wear veils and forbids western clothing then I think they would be more encouraged if western governments forbids veils and force people to wear western clothing than deterred, it makes a great argument even.

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folder icon   07-15-2010, 10:26 AM
Post #9
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From what I can tell, trying to talk politics to a Frenchman is useless. So why bother. Let them fuck up their country. Just keep the art in one piece.

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folder icon   07-20-2010, 04:29 PM
Post #10
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This really is one of those things that gets more stupid the more you think about it, next time im going to france im bringing the burka.

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folder icon   07-20-2010, 06:56 PM
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I'm gonna wear fake boobs and a hijab the next time I visit Paris. Watch this space for photos.

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folder icon   07-21-2010, 05:18 AM
Post #12
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It's unfortunate, but its either that or molesting nuns.

And lets not be that guy.

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folder icon   08-04-2010, 10:52 PM
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Its an alien cultural practice with no roots in Islam based on an unequal notion of gender relationship. How can anyone have sympathy for it is beyond me.

Thanks ultrapunk for putting on the same foot the outlawing of the veil, which force all muslim women to chose for themselves, with the public enforcement of the veil, which take away all choices from women.

Maybe you dont like either one of these, but they're clearly not equivalent.

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folder icon   08-04-2010, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Thusaud
If the purpouse is to emancipate women (won't comment further on that) then I think it will fail.

If the Saudis force people to wear veils and forbids western clothing then I think they would be more encouraged if western governments forbids veils and force people to wear western clothing than deterred, it makes a great argument even.


Except that the idea here isnt to promote a western way of life in a foreign country, its about preserving that way of life within a western country.

Which of course is futile, in a country where the influx of populations of ex-colonies is compensating for the demographic collapse of the natives. Coupled with failiure to integrate and totalitarian multiculturalisme.

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folder icon   08-05-2010, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
Its an alien cultural practice with no roots in Islam based on an unequal notion of gender relationship. How can anyone have sympathy for it is beyond me.

Thanks ultrapunk for putting on the same foot the outlawing of the veil, which force all muslim women to chose for themselves, with the public enforcement of the veil, which take away all choices from women.

I don't understand your last sentence.
Outlawing the veil would remove the choice to wear a veil.
Public enforcement of the veil would remove the choice to remove the veil.
Both laws take away the choice from the women in question, neither force the women in question to choose. In fact the only way you could say that you are forcing people to choose for themselves is to allow both the wearing and removal of the veil. So that no one should be forced to remove or wear the veil for what ever reason by another person.

Like I said I don't understand your sentence.

As for your first sentence, it is a cultural practice but to whom is it alien? It is most certainly not alien to Islam which has its roots firmly in the same cultural practices, which even calls on its believers to dress modestly and encourages to covering of the hair, shoulders, neck and body in general...

Which leads me to believe that I don't really understand your post. What are you trying to say?. Im confused.

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folder icon   08-06-2010, 07:55 AM
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I think what he means is that islamic fundamentalism is relatively new, i.e. 20th century phenomena, meant to ferment unrest against the West, seen by many in the Middle East as a manign influence, (and often with good reason). Whatever, let the women of France choose for themselves. Telling people what to wear is an example of thought police. The only thing I'd support is removal of the veil for photo ID's. That's just common sense. I wouldn't let a man wear a hat, either, for his photo ID.

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folder icon   08-06-2010, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy the Saint
I don't understand your last sentence.
Outlawing the veil would remove the choice to wear a veil.
Public enforcement of the veil would remove the choice to remove the veil.
Both laws take away the choice from the women in question, neither force the women in question to choose. In fact the only way you could say that you are forcing people to choose for themselves is to allow both the wearing and removal of the veil. So that no one should be forced to remove or wear the veil for what ever reason by another person.

Like I said I don't understand your sentence.

As for your first sentence, it is a cultural practice but to whom is it alien? It is most certainly not alien to Islam which has its roots firmly in the same cultural practices, which even calls on its believers to dress modestly and encourages to covering of the hair, shoulders, neck and body in general...

Which leads me to believe that I don't really understand your post. What are you trying to say?. Im confused.


- Banning the veil leaves more choices available to the women than enforcing the veil, which leaves no choice at all. Thats why they're not equivalent mesures, if you bother look beyond the simple fact that theyre both coercitive.

- The veil is a cultural practice, not a religious one: nowhere in the Koran will you find basis for it. The Koran simply calls the women to be modest in the presence of men. The veil, as a cultural practice, originated from Persia, which spread eastward and westerward. So it cant be defended on religious grounds.

So my point is that it is reasonable to assume that you can satisfy the koranic calls for modesty (which doesnt call for hidding the face) while respecting western sensitivities regarding anonymity is the public space (which insist of seeing your face, at a minimum).

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folder icon   08-06-2010, 01:44 PM
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Nothing in the Bible talks about condoms or stem cell research, and yet we see the Pope making decrees on these subjects. Could it be religions evolve over time?

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folder icon   08-06-2010, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
- Banning the veil leaves more choices available to the women than enforcing the veil, which leaves no choice at all. Thats why they're not equivalent mesures, if you bother look beyond the simple fact that theyre both coercitive.

Umm, banning them leaves the same choice as forcing people to wear them. Each gives 1 option, or in other words no options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
- The veil is a cultural practice, not a religious one: nowhere in the Koran will you find basis for it. The Koran simply calls the women to be modest in the presence of men. The veil, as a cultural practice, originated from Persia, which spread eastward and westerward. So it cant be defended on religious grounds.

So you're saying that its ok to outlaw other cultures because they don't fit into western norms?

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folder icon   08-06-2010, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
- Banning the veil leaves more choices available to the women than enforcing the veil, which leaves no choice at all. Thats why they're not equivalent mesures, if you bother look beyond the simple fact that theyre both coercitive.

- The veil is a cultural practice, not a religious one: nowhere in the Koran will you find basis for it. The Koran simply calls the women to be modest in the presence of men. The veil, as a cultural practice, originated from Persia, which spread eastward and westerward. So it cant be defended on religious grounds.

So my point is that it is reasonable to assume that you can satisfy the koranic calls for modesty (which doesnt call for hidding the face) while respecting western sensitivities regarding anonymity is the public space (which insist of seeing your face, at a minimum).


Arguing whether it is religious or cultural doesn't make any difference especially to a person like me who isn't religious anyways.

Your statement about choice doesn't make sense. You either wear a veil or you don't. How do you have less choices either way? It's rather boolean. If you bother to look beyond your distaste for the veil, then you would see the simple facts before you.

Do I ask that you satisfy your Christian principles in the one way that the state allows? No because that is against the principle of freedom.

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folder icon   08-07-2010, 12:04 AM
Post #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
Nothing in the Bible talks about condoms or stem cell research, and yet we see the Pope making decrees on these subjects. Could it be religions evolve over time?

No. Theses are exemples of a religion subordinating contemporary realities (stem cells and contraceptives) to immuable religious principles (the value life, sexual habits). It is the opposite of evolving.

Concerning the veil, what we have is the imposition of a middle-eastern cultural norm (full-body veil) in the name of a religious principle (subordinating women to men) that doesnt specificaly call for a full-body veil.

Theses two things arent the same at all, im not sure your attempt at moral equivalence with christianity works.

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folder icon   08-07-2010, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the12thman
Umm, banning them leaves the same choice as forcing people to wear them. Each gives 1 option, or in other words no options.

So you're saying that its ok to outlaw other cultures because they don't fit into western norms?


- So a women who lives in a country where the veil is banned end up with as much freedom to dress herself as a women who lives in a country where she cant wear anything but a veil?

If we mesure freedom with the available choices left to the women to dress herself (which is everything but the veil), the she ends up with more choices.

- Which culture as been outlawed with the banning of the veil?

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folder icon   08-07-2010, 12:16 AM
Post #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk
Arguing whether it is religious or cultural doesn't make any difference especially to a person like me who isn't religious anyways.

Well, whether or not it is a religious right or a cultural norm is important, because in most constitutions and constitutional charters, religious expression ranks higher than most principles.
Quote:

Your statement about choice doesn't make sense. You either wear a veil or you don't. How do you have less choices either way?

Like I said above, a women who cannot wear a veil still ends up with more freedom to express her religion and cultural identity, than a women who is forced to wear a full-bodied veil. My argument is always a comparaison between the two cases.
Quote:
No because that is against the principle of freedom.

Freedom isnt valuable as an end in itself, it is valuable as a mean to an end: the emancipation of the individual. The wearing of the veil (it is impossible to tell whether or not it is worn willingly, but common sense suggest it isnt always the case), which subordinate a woman's body to the sensibilities of men in an extrem way, is the opposite of emancipation.

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folder icon   08-07-2010, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
- So a women who lives in a country where the veil is banned end up with as much freedom to dress herself as a women who lives in a country where she cant wear anything but a veil?

If we mesure freedom with the available choices left to the women to dress herself (which is everything but the veil), the she ends up with more choices.

- Which culture as been outlawed with the banning of the veil?


What? I'm talking about France. In France a woman cannot wear the veil, that's not freedom, its not about number of choices its about the government not telling people what not to wear. So in France, the part of a culture where women wear full veils has been outlawed. How is this hard to understand?

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folder icon   08-07-2010, 01:44 AM
Post #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the12thman
What? I'm talking about France. In France a woman cannot wear the veil, that's not freedom, its not about number of choices its about the government not telling people what not to wear.

Freedom isnt an absolute value, this is not "you are free or you are unfree". There are degrees of freedom, which you can mesure using certain metrics. The choices left that are available after the ban is one such metric. Using this metric, we can say that women in France are left enjoying more freedom relatively to Saudi women.

Btw, I hope that you havent lost sight of the fact that this argument is about ultrapunk's statement according to which the french ban on the veil is equivalent to the saudi ban on everthing that is not the veil.
Quote:

So in France, the part of a culture where women wear full veils has been outlawed. How is this hard to understand?

Well, this is not the same as saying an entire culture as been outlawed, but I agree with that. I dont really care about it, though. The great majority of Europeans dont, either. I dont see why anybody should care about such a cultural practice.

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folder icon   08-07-2010, 01:50 AM
Post #26
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http://english.aljazeera.net/news/e...4852665644.html

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Al Jazeera's Laurence Lee reports on France's controversial move towards ban on full face veils

France's lower house of parliament has voted to ban the wearing of face-covering veils in public places by 336 votes to one in the 557-seat assembly.

The bill, which has received overwhelming support in opinion polls, must now be ratified by the senate in September to become law.

The opposition Socialist party, who originally wanted the ban limited only to public buildings, boycotted Tuesday's vote.

France's highest administrative body cautioned in March that the bill could be found to be unconstitutional and therefore thrown out.

Estelle Youssouffa, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Paris, said: "The Council of the State warned the government that the French law and the EU law could find this bill unconstitutional, as it violates human rights and religious freedom."

'Bare face'

The bill makes it illegal to cover the face anywhere in public and those caught wearing a full veil would face fines of $190 or be ordered to enrol in a "citizenship course".

Men who force their wives or daughters to wear the full veil face a fine of up to $37,754 and a one-year jail term, according to the draft legislation.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, said earlier this year that the full veil "hurts the dignity of women and is not acceptable in French society".

Life in France is "carried out with a bare face", Michele Alliot-Marie, the justice minister, said last week as she opened the debate in the National Assembly.

Face-covering veils "call into question the idea of integration, which is founded on the acceptance of the values of our society", Alliot-Marie said.

Muslim fears

The main body representing French Muslims says face-covering veils are not required by Islam and not suitable in France, but it worries that the law will stigmatise Muslims in general.


The veil is widely seen in France as a sign of extremism and an attack on women's rights and secularism, a central value of modern-day France.

Critics say the ban is a ploy to attract far-right voters.

Our correspondent said the Muslim community in France is uncomfortable with the bill and feels it is stigmatising the whole community.

"French Muslims say less than only 2,000 women use the veil and are seen as ultra-orthodox minority and do not represent the whole community," she said.

In April, politicians in Belgium's lower house voted almost unanimously to ban the wearing of face veils in public places.

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folder icon   08-07-2010, 01:30 PM
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My point is they have the most freedom if the French govt. doesn't interfere.

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folder icon   08-07-2010, 03:52 PM
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This is a statement of fact that I agree with. Those muslims who willingly wear the full-face veil lose some freedom. Those who are coerced into wearing it find themselves in a position where submiting to peer-pressure becomes more difficult. But I believe that they now are better armed to deal with it with legal means.

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folder icon   08-09-2010, 10:49 AM
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I actually saw a person in a full face veil for the first time today, all I could see was her eyes.

They where beautiful.

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folder icon   08-09-2010, 02:01 PM
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so and so

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"No. Theses are exemples of a religion subordinating contemporary realities (stem cells and contraceptives) to immuable religious principles (the value life, sexual habits). It is the opposite of evolving."

Dude you're mincing over the technicalities of one example when it's obvious all religions evolve and change over time, sometimes quite rapidly. You say the veil isn't a religious thing because it isn't specifically called for in the book. I say it doesn't have to be in any book. The 7 Deadly Sins aren't in the bible...

Religion is all about making shit up, and once a religion's started, it's hard to break the habit. Women in France have legal protection, they don't have to wear the veil if they don't want. Social pressure will always exist, but it's up to the individual to react to it how they wish.

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folder icon   08-09-2010, 09:53 PM
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Nah, its not obvious to me that religion is all about making shit up and that its core principles changes over time. =P

7 sins got some basis in the bible apparently, according to wikipedia.

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folder icon   08-10-2010, 01:00 AM
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so and so

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wearing the veil's got some basis in the Koran, apparently...

And if Christianity's core beliefs haven't changed, hmmmm what was Jesus' main message on Earth?

Love thy neighbor as thyself. Turn the other cheek... yeah.....

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folder icon   08-10-2010, 01:10 AM
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I very much understand what you are saying BE, but such a ban seems to be too much of a target towards a specific culture right?

I mean, what about Americans banning Latino people from wearing sombreros? Or eating tacos? Regardless if it is something that is required, preferred, forced upon, can you really target such an ethnic group? I mean as long as they aren't doing something that would be consider extreme (eating people etc.) I really don't think that the government has much say in the matters. Either way the line is very gray I think in such matters and should be probably left alone.

And yes the former examples were ridiculously stereotypical for a reason. Im not a Latino and do not wear sombreros, but I do eat lots of tacos.

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folder icon   08-10-2010, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Crusader~
can you really target such an ethnic group?

I dunno, I wouldnt reduce France 10 millions muslims to a mere ethnic group or a visible minority, and you cant reduce them to the handfull of women who wear the fullface veil.

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folder icon   08-10-2010, 02:23 PM
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WTF are you talking about? They are an ethnic group, and they are being targeted. How many Christian women does this apply to?

You can't talk politics to a Frenchman.

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