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Less Talk, More Fight  
folder icon   11-24-2003, 06:40 AM
Less Talk, More Fight Post #1
-G R U N T-

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Those of you who've played Warcraft 3 with me might have heard me say that.

What I want to say is that I feel that as things are, there's waaaaaaay too much red tape in the WDP. Jeltz and I talked about this over MSN. Grom's clan isn't necessarily more organised, but it IS a lot simpler than ours.

I'm worried that the whole council system to make decisions is going to bog down the whole decision-making thing. Upon re-thinking, I really dont think we need more than 5 people (including Gunny) to do this. Gunny himself should be able to make MOST decisions on his own- jsut one word and bang, problem solved. Big decisions should require more people, but really not so many.

I'm sure that the WDP can achieve some way of uniting the Horde and Alliance factions of the WDP, but I'm worried that this way would require too much effort on the part of the clan members, or too much commitment and involvement in the game. Like I said- less talk, more fight- I admittedly don't want to spend a great deal of time in the forums when I could be out playing.

To be perfectly honest, I dont know if everyone is really committed enough to put that kind of effort in- I myself would probably want to spend as little time in the forum as possible (enough to maintain the community and clan of course, but not so much as to prevent me from playing as much as I'd want to). I'm also scared that if things get too bogged down, it'll turn off newbies who want to join our clan. They might not be committed enough to whatever solution we come up with during the beta/retail. Furthermore, what about the casual gaming audience? I just want to be in a clan to have fun, and to have friends to play with. I already get that from being in a forum with all you guys- but what about someone who just wants to be in a clan for fun? He'd probably join Grom's clan or something (not saying it's worse), but it's a lot more newbie-friendly. It doesn't demand as much commitment as ours (I feel).

In any case, I'll wait to see how things turn out during the beta and retail...i just felt I needed to voice my concerns....and Jeltz's . Of course, there's always the chance that I'm worrying too much.

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folder icon   11-24-2003, 08:46 AM
Post #2
Grom-Hellscream

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See, that's what I've been trying to have you guys realize. You can still feel a tight friendship and bond with the other members of WDP, but things need to be simpler and yes, more organized, so the obsolete stuff is eliminated and the clan is at it's most efficent running status.

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folder icon   11-24-2003, 12:13 PM
Post #3
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Man, I had two dozen soviet-era admiral uniform with a WPD tag on the arm to be delivered to you guys. Does that mean I've got to cancel those ?

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folder icon   11-24-2003, 03:00 PM
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You guys seem to want to make things far to complex. As much as i dont like grom, his clan is much better organized than yours.

To get this to work is simple enough. I would say quit trying to do all of this democratic bs, and just say Gunny has supreme executive power. [insertforumername] is in charge when gunny aint here, and [blahblahblah] is in charge if niehter of them are there. If all three of them are gone, then you vote on a new three. Simple enough.

There is no need for all of these 'councils' and crap, they are (or will be) inefficiant. If you dont like how something is going with the clan, or you dont like a desicion that has been made, then make a topic in the WDP forum saying "OFFICIAL COMPLAINT: whatever the complaint" You have a rule that says you can only make an official complaint when three people agree with you on your complaint. In the thread you whine about whatever youd ont like. If it shows that there are a number of people that agree with you, gunny makes the decision and says whatever about whatever.


Bam done. Simple efficient, not very complex, and it works. Ill give you a two year warranty. Councils dont work. Look at CoW. There is no reason for us to actually have a council, we all agree on most everything. We would be just as good off as having a dictator.

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folder icon   11-24-2003, 03:08 PM
Post #5
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Amusing, but yes, he's correct.

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folder icon   11-24-2003, 07:28 PM
Post #6
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Damn straight.

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folder icon   11-24-2003, 07:55 PM
Post #7
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If thats what you really want, i can't say im surprised. I got the impression that the people wanted a large representation body, but i never saw the use. If you just want to go back to the 5 man system, that would make things a hell of a lot less complicated. Really im releaved.

Of course, we'll need to thin out the departments a bit, and do away with unnecesary groups.

Don't worry about getting fired, i wont do that. But expect some job shuffling in the coming weeks.

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folder icon   11-24-2003, 07:58 PM
Post #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Lone_Gunman*
If thats what you really want, i can't say im surprised. I got the impression that the people wanted a large representation body, but i never saw the use. If you just want to go back to the 5 man system, that would make things a hell of a lot less complicated. Really im releaved.

Of course, we'll need to thin out the departments a bit, and do away with unnecesary groups.

Don't worry about getting fired, i wont do that. But expect some job shuffling in the coming weeks.

I was never expecting to get fired . Or should I be?

Anyways, thanks . Although we'll still need to do a lot of thinking =/.

B~E- you were't serious about those uniforms, were you?

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folder icon   11-24-2003, 08:08 PM
Post #9
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I agree that we should get rid of some of our departments. For instance my position and dimi's positions seem to be sort of usless as far as game play. Some of the positions are useful, but judge and head of press are pretty danged usless. That being said, i would still like to do something in the clan, but my current possition is just silly

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folder icon   11-24-2003, 10:35 PM
Post #10
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I'm some obscure grunt thingy, and I'm not even near it, and all the dang charter-council debating, planning, redrawing and theorizing makes my fuggin' head hurt. Do straight number votes based on everyone's choices, have some people appointed to military ranks (have maaaybe 4 ranks at most, Grunt-Legionnaire-General-Warmaster or such) to make the hierarchy/divisions function, and don't clog everything up with complicated-ass arrangements and cabinets, elections, departments and all the rest of the bureaucracy shit.

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folder icon   11-24-2003, 11:15 PM
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No, my idea is better rynjaxx. Its the best. thats read as "Its the best, period."

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folder icon   11-25-2003, 05:49 AM
Post #12
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I have never liked building up comple systems. I think it would be best if we had few people in important positions, and if ut turns our we need more administrating people appoint some more. We shouldn't need elections if everything works as it should.

I think that we should focus more on the game and less on clan administration.

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folder icon   11-25-2003, 08:39 PM
Post #13
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well, just in my own defence......

1st of all, when this clan first formed, people came up with all sorts of ideas that didn't make much sense, but it was all based on enthusiasm for the game - so I supported it, figuring it'd be a fun story if nothing else. People were talking about actually dominating the online world, building a political party, having a judge, and all sorts of cabinet positions. It seemed like some of the cabinet appointments were done more to be nice than with a focus for the clan involved. I didn't suggest much of anything to change it just cuz, as always, I'm just here to have fun.

2nd, everything here was fine till the great Clan Schizm. Everyone was enthusiastic right till that part. Then all of a sudden people started hating on each other, and only through gunman's grace are we still allied. But it's hurt our clan, and we're still suffering from it. ever since no idea's gone unchallenged. no idea's met with enthusiasm. People decided to try and reorganize this clan thingy but then they couldn't figure out how. We had some votes for new general and such, but none of it was ever made official...

3rd, Gunny asked the peacekeepers for advice on a charter, so after about a month in which no one else said a single word, I put up that charter thingy. I tried, actually, to make it pretty simple, but you'll notice you guys kept responding that you wanted change after change, *grumble* I added on all sorts of stuff to get you all to agree to it, and now you think it's too complicated.....

My idea was simple. one king to rule them all. 9 men to guide him. 30 men to serve them all and in their wisdom bide him. the reason for the council was so new members couldn't gang up and oust our emperor - but if we're not going to let new people rush our clan, then no it's not necessary. Remember the only reason I wrote in a council is cuz you people said you wanted lots of new members. that's another question - do you or not? the other reason for at least a few leaders is so there's always someone to lead us online. I know that's not a big deal, but it helps for organizing group quests which seem fun. Also, despite Grom's claims to the contrary there are other roles to be performed which DO require more people. we need some treasurer to hold and redistribute items like swords and herbs. Plus if that same person tried to set up some shop we could make money for the clan. I think raising money is one of the few things we're sure to want to do - even if we can't build a clan hall. It's just good to have cash.

It's also annoying to see how many people didn't like my ideas and didn't say so during the original discussion. why didn't you say something?

anyways..... Lonegunman you still haven't answered some basic questions about your charter idea. is there still a council? how big is it? are your cabinet choices part of the council or are they separate? are they the council? does the clan get to choose any of them? what do they do?

then there's basic questions for the clan as a whole. do we still want to try and dominate the world, and if so how would we do this? do we just want to hang out online? I don't want to press the question because I'll just go along with whatever. it's just annoying to see people with obviously different visions for this clan apparently ignoring each other for like a year while we talk about all this stuff. so would you guys at least talk about this?

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Last edited by so and so on 11-25-2003 at 08:48 PM.
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folder icon   11-25-2003, 08:57 PM
Post #14
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So and so, i'm sorry that i put you through this. But you did the job asked of you, and that is all i can ask. even though the idea you proposed might not be put into action, i have made note about your effort.

Hmm, how will the system work again. Well i talked with spam last night and i think it could be best to have a very small council from seperate departments, like we used too. The deparments (so far) wil consist of: The military (orc and human branches, so two people from this department), and the other two planned councilor positions at the moment belong to the treasury and an as of yet undetermined department. The department of labor still exists, although weather or not it will have an HC representative is still being determined. then lastly there is me at the head of the council. I know htis is still painfully vague (at least to me) but i will try to come up with more specifics.

'But wait' you might gather from that last paragraph, 'the judiciary, press, and peacekeeper departments were left out'. Well, i had to let the news out eventualy: the judicial and press departments have been done away with entirely (the small number of people who served in them will be up for new positions, they are still in the clan).
As for the peacekeepers, i know this will come as a shock to many (seeing as it is one of our two largest departments) but me and spam can't see the point in keeping it around. I myself am hard pressed to explain exactly what it is you do (aside from wizzarding, which not all of you do), and when i have to half-ass my way to an answer i start thinking there might be trouble. However, as there are so many peacekeepers it would feel inconsiderate to just do away with it. At least, the department will be reorganized so we can have a clear definition of its services. At most, well, it would be done away with. So peacekeepers, put your heads together and we will have a clan meeting soon.

Finaly, i would just like to acknowledge that it wasn't just me who kept the clan together and the horde as our ally after the divide. Although i'm flattered at the suggestion, i just want it to be known it wasn't a lone effort.

Keep the questions coming, i'll try to be prompt with responses.

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folder icon   11-25-2003, 09:08 PM
Post #15
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hey thanks, i hope i didnt' sound too bitchy... let's just get this game soon and concern ourselves with playing over anything else.

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folder icon   11-26-2003, 04:52 AM
Post #16
Jeltz

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So and So it was not your idea that I didn't like it was the general way oforganizing the clan. And I don't care whos fault it is, it is probably mine too since I should have realized this earlier and said something. Many people had good ideas, but it got too complicated, in my oppinion.

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