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folder icon   02-02-2005, 03:05 PM
Post #71
Quimquay

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Good idea, Zorax, that wasn't very helpful before (fleeing linked with Tactics).

Perhaps I will do the opposite for Tactics: more tactics reduces your opponents success at fleeing. Tactics would allow you to encircle your enemy or something like that...

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folder icon   02-02-2005, 03:51 PM
Post #72
Quimquay

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellanor
1 & 2) 40% base for both sounds fine
3) Naw, I don't think they should loose the ability to attack.
4) I think low health should also be an aspect to it. But you also have to think of weird situations like this one: a nightwing and a condor are fighting. The nightwing has far less health and should logically run away. Now say the nightwing has 2 beams equiped and the conor has only 1 beam. It's now outgunned, so it should logically run away. But let's now make that one beam on th econdor a turbo beam. It's still outgunned despite the fact that the 1 turbo beam is probably equal (or better then) the two beams.
Figuring something out that would work in all those weird situations will be hard, and I wish you luck.
5) I think what you should have is the base remain 40% and then add or subtract based on the difference between the slowest ship in each fleet.
ie. 2 fireflies (3800km/h) run from a moonbeam (2000km/h) that's a base 40% chance +((3800-2000)=1800)/100=18) = 58% chance to run away.

now if the same moonbeam were to attempt to run from the fireflies it would have a 22% chance (40%-18%).

you could actual get situations where they actually aren't able to run away (say in the case of a Colosus running from a firefly (yeah right) with a speed of 4900 (boosted by whatever) would give it a 0% chance to run.


I'd cap it at 20 and 80, respectively.

I think this is how I'll resolve the running away logic.

I calculate the ratio of the number of active guns, then I calculate the ratio of health, then add these ratios together.

If you're even, the number will be 2.0 (1.0 + 1.0). But if your opponent is much stronger than you, it will be higher. If the number is greater than, say, 3.0, then you should run. That means that your enemy either has twice the guns as you, or twice the health, or some combination of those.

Remember, you can always manually set your fleet to "never run" or "always run".

By the way, I don't want to reset the universe too much, but there are good reasons to do so when the next version is done. I've made large changes to the database that will be hard to integrate. A lot of ship statistics have changed, especially weight, so many officers will have fleets too big for them, which is a bit unfair. Also, people have too many high level officers and too much money. I'd like to get my own hosting, too, so that would require reseting everything.

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folder icon   02-02-2005, 04:24 PM
Post #73
Pellanor

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naw if you got your own hosting you'd just have to get a mysqldump of the current game and read that in on your new host, and everything would stay as is.

One bonus to the speed effecting your chances of running away is that it gives the scouts with lone fireflys a good chance to escape just about everything, and gives squads of fast ships an advantage against bigger ones (expecially if there's a repair bay in the sector. attack, run away, repair, atack again, repair again, and keep repeating till he's dead), unless of course the big one has a tractor beam (or three).

also, something you might want to do when calculating the gun ration is have different guns be weighted differently. ie. beam = 0.5, double beam = 1, turbo beam = 1.5, all missles = 1, ion beam = 1, heavy ion = 1.5

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folder icon   02-02-2005, 04:43 PM
Post #74
Quimquay

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I already add gun costs, not just 1 for every gun.

That might not a good system, though. That means a Turbo Beam is worth 9.5 Beams, which is inaccurate. It's only worth about 1.5-2 beams. In any case, I will see about having more accurate weighting.

edit: The cloaking ships will benefit from hit-and-run tactics...

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folder icon   02-02-2005, 06:35 PM
Post #75
Pellanor

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well, you can defeat a condor with small ships.

it was myself vs Highspar, I had 3 nightwings and an osprey, all armed with heavy bombs, and I had 10 hull left in my osprey when the battle finally ended.

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folder icon   02-03-2005, 12:28 AM
Post #76
Quimquay

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellanor
well, you can defeat a condor with small ships.

it was myself vs Highspar, I had 3 nightwings and an osprey, all armed with heavy bombs, and I had 10 hull left in my osprey when the battle finally ended.


Interestingly, your opponent, that chick, has extra high evasion, which is why the heavy bombs had a 49% chance, not a 65% chance (I think). On the other hand, I believe that purple robot has extra strong missiles, so that balances it.

But yes, that does illustrate that it is possible and only needs some slight tweaking.

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folder icon   02-03-2005, 02:19 PM
Post #77
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I definitely think you should reset it when you implement all those changes. Otherwise it's like having people playing two different games in the same game. People who got rich and loads of exp back when it was easy to do both will be at a total advantage.

To everyone who doesn't want to lose their officers and money, deal with it.

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folder icon   02-03-2005, 02:34 PM
Post #78
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so does that mean, since the game's getting reset and I'm loosing all my cool stuff anyways, I should just kick your ass while I have the chance?

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folder icon   02-03-2005, 02:51 PM
Post #79
Highspar

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellanor
so does that mean, since the game's getting reset and I'm loosing all my cool stuff anyways, I should just kick your ass while I have the chance?


kick his ass with what? I've been picking off your fleet pretty well. almost all done with your combat ships, then I get to start with your transports.

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folder icon   02-03-2005, 02:57 PM
Post #80
Zorax

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Pell, chill out.

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folder icon   02-03-2005, 03:48 PM
Post #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorax
Pell, chill out.
It was a joke, jeez... Maybe if I add a few smiles next time... *shakes head*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highspar
kick his ass with what? I've been picking off your fleet pretty well. almost all done with your combat ships, then I get to start with your transports.
I've noticed... Oh well, you only got all my easily replaced low level guys so I'm not too concerned.

and your last attack didn't seem to go that well...

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folder icon   02-03-2005, 03:56 PM
Post #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pellanor

I've noticed... Oh well, you only got all my easily replaced low level guys so I'm not too concerned.

and your last attack didn't seem to go that well...



it didn't? damn it. gotta go log back in then.

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folder icon   02-04-2005, 04:09 PM
Post #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quimquay
Pellanor:
A planet should be able to run dry. That will happen whenever a particular trade route is over-crowded. It should not happen overnight but it should eventually happen, given that people buy faster than the planet produces. This encourages people to seek out underutilized trade routes, which should have excess surplus. Adjusting the rates to reflect the density of the sector is quite easy to do, but I don't think it's necessary. It seems to me that such a measure would reduce competition.

My game design goals are:
-To encourage people to stake out territory in hostile regions and fight for it
-To encourage people to leave the safe sectors
-To have profit hard to come by, thus making people compete more for it
-To force people to cooperate, because it's difficult and wasteful to hold a few sectors all by yourself (thus, the clans)

I lowered the value of all the cargo, which will lower revenue per trip all across the board. I've lowered the production of planets in the safe sectors by about half. They'll be healthy for a while but they should eventually dwindle down to unprofitable.

I've capped everyone's money at 50000, too, so newer people aren't screwed by the changes. Some people had over 1M credits, which is a little excessive.

I think there are still problems, but I can't get my head around them at the moment, hehe.


Okay, this is an old post, but I've been having some thoughts. As the game grows you're going to find that sectors are running dry everywhere far quicker then you planned. I had 4 merchants in one sector who manged to completely dry it up in about 3-4 days time. the first day was when you had the exp glitch and so all my guys were around level 3 for the next couple days, and had 2 pelicans and a volos each. now, with the consumption rates at the planets in my sector, it will take about 1 week for the goods to drop down to 0, about half that to drop to the point where you an make reasonable profit again.

Now I started setting up all the bases and moving my guys there a week ago. So that basically means that for a low-mid level player, they go through one sector a week, and they take 1 week t return to normal, which means that for every player you have, who has 4 lvl 3-4 merchants you require 2 sectors each with two planets in order for them to maintain themselves and grow further.

Now, going on the assumption that this game goes and gets itself popular, you're going to be running out of sectors really quickly. Because, realistically, an active player can make 250 exp per merchant per day,soyou can have those lvl 3-4 merchants in about 2 weeks time.

Also, as you continue to grow, you will need more resources. I can see, with how the game is set up right now, a high level player (with lvl 5+ officers everywhere) needing 5 sectors to support himself.

This is why I was suggesting the scalable consumption/production rate. Make it so that when you get tonnes of players you can have 2-3 allies occuping two sectors and "drying them up" in the same timeframe that a single merchant does now.

anyways, enough on that...

Another thing that I think needs to be dealt with: it's too easy to get killed. Unless you're hiding in the pacafist sectors, it is way to easy to get killed. I know I was bitching at people who were complaining about this before, but I just never realized what a problem it was cause I was hiding in my corner.

I was in what, 5th or 6th position for most of the week, right? I'm still in 8th, but since wendsday I've had 12 out of my 15 fleets destroyed. I'm not sure what I could have done strategically to prevent this either. Basically two more powerful "nations" gange beated me and now I'm screwed. I'm not going to be able to recover within 2 weeks (we after the server reset).

Now I'm not going to bitch about the fact that I just had my ass handed to me, I just want to try to think up ways to stop this from happening to others.

Trade is a major part of the game and the key way to get income. There is no way for a merchant caravan to defend itself from an equal level raider. It just isn't possible. So what's stopping a lvl 2 officer from going around and killing every trade caravan out there (or even a lvl one officer)? nothing.
I mean a clan could declare war on somebody who does this, but outside of the concentrate effort of a clan there is nothing to stop a larger "nation" from screwing with everybody who leaves the safe zone. Without your merchant caravans you can't make the money to be able to launch an effective counter attack.

What I think needs to be set up is something like this:
Merchants should run away automatically. you already have something done for this so that's cool.
You should be able to set ships into an "escort mode". In this way you can have one fleet escort another. the two fleets move at the slower speed of the two (though for purposes of running away, the speed is per the fleet). The ship that's set as the "defender" in the escort should automatically be able to intercept attacks against their "defendee". Of make it a chance based on tactics and speed or something. make it something like an 80% chance to intercept +1% per 100 km/hfor the defender, +5% per point of defenders tactics, -1% per 100 km/hfor the enemies, -5% per point of enemies tactic.

I thikn there should be some other options besides just attacking too. Maybe like offering surrender (We take your cargo but let you live) kinda thing, just to stop people from being annihalated.

anyways, I'll let you think about it. if I come up with any cool ideas, I'll let you know.

edit: another idea follows

Anyways, I had another crazy idea. Set up something so that ships can automatically run away from the enemy. Now I know what you're saying, "But I already have that" well not like this you don't.

right now you hae it so that you must be engaged in combat before ou have the chance of running away. I think you should be able to run away before you even get into combat. For example, say I have a firefly just sitting there, when an enemy condor pulls into the tile next to me. Now I'm a sane little officer, what do I do? Sit there and hope the Condor doesn't notice me? no. I move to the ex tile over. Then I sit there and wait. if the condor continues to follow me, then I will continue to outrun him with my superior speed.

This makes sense, because there should be no way that a condor ever sneaks up on a firefly. they're just too damned big and the firefly is just too damned fast. However if you have strategically placed condors you can surround the firefly and give him nohere to run to, so that you eventually capture him. This could add a whole new strategy as you have to manuever your ships in such a way to cut off escape routes. Also have a nice little script to determine where they run two, make it so that the more tactics or intelligence or whatever that the fleeing pilot has, the more likely they are to run into a square that they can't get caught from. Set it up so that if they already have a destination they will attempt to continue towards in whenever possible. Have it so that they don't fly into squares adjecent to an enemy ship, etc... Have it so you can check that they only run away if outgunned, or whatever, but since they aren't enganged in comba tthey have to make intelligence and/or tactics checks to determine who much weaponry it has.

I might do something like this to check if they'll run away:
if alwaysRun = true then run away
else if neverRun = true then don't run
else if intelligence*5 + rand()*100 < 25 then run if they're outgunned (as in the enemy is outgunned, and you should kick their ass)
else if intelligence*5 + rand()*100 > 100 then run if outgunned
else if intelligence*5 + rand()*100 < 50 then run if they're more capital class then you, or other wise all round bigger.
else if intelligence*5 + rand()*100 < 70 then run if they're more then 25% more weight then you

that probably wouldn't work very well, but I'll leave the tweaking up to you.

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folder icon   02-05-2005, 09:25 AM
Post #84
Quimquay

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Wow, a nice meaty post. Comments:

1) I agree that the economic model is chaotic and unsustainable. This is the toughest part of the game to balance. I might just redo the entire model.

Perhaps there should be a set profit for all transactions. Buying commodity Z at planet X and selling at planet Y gives you the same profit (or lack of profit) every time. However, the profit slowly goes up on planets where trade in a certain item is deficient. If planet X needs Ore but never gets it, then price it will pay for Ore goes up slowly, until it will pay, say, 50% above the usual price.

That way is simple and easy to balance. It never "dries up" because a certain level of profit is garaunteed. Stability of profit makes defending a sector a more intelligent decision. With a simpler system, I can make the punishment for being evil exactly as punitive as I want it to be.

-------------------------------------------------
2) I agree that predation is quite easy and there are not many ways to defend against it.

Surrendering is a good idea.

Could be exploited though. Can a Herald surrender its cargo in exchange for invulnerability? The chance that surrendering will actually buy you clemency should be determined by the amount you give them. Maybe 5000 worth of cargo is equivalent to 100% chance of surrendering and it descends from there.

This means that he could just use two pirate fleets, engage your merchant, have him surrender, then use the other fleet to finish you off. However, it would probably still be effective in many cases.

---------------------------------------------------------------
3) Having one fleet be designated as escorting another fleet is a great idea. Not hard either.

In the Orders page, you see a list of your fleets in your quadrant: "Escort fleet _____". You select a fleet you want to escort. If you're too slow to escort it, it gives you an error message. If you're too fast, that's okay, your speed will be reduced. When you're escorting a fleet, you have no orders except "Cancel escorting". When a fleet moves or warp jumps, I search for fleets escorting it, and give them similar orders. When a fleet attacks another fleet, I search for fleets escorting it, then force the fleet to successively battle each escort until unsuccessful or totally successful. It's like you're chaining fleets together, which is damned useful for weaker players.

---------------------------------------------------------------
4) The Baka is a great ship for defending your merchant routes. It only travels 250 km/h, so it's doubtful that you'll see many far from their home sector. I suspect (and hope) that a good tactic will be to pair 1-2 Ospreys with a fleet of Baka bombs, to patrol (and stake out) your merchant lanes.

---------------------------------------------------------------
5) Couple more small ideas I had:

A "mod shop" on some planets - Allows you to tweak your ships a bit, different shops have different tweaks. Tweaking is changing a slot of one type to another. Maybe you think your Pelican doesn't need it's weapon or accessory slot, so pay a bit and let the mechanic change the slots into cargo slots. Might be fun. People like customizing stuff, no?

A "black market" on some planets - Every 12 hours or so, a new ship becomes available to buy. The catch is that they are black market "hot" imperial ships (serial numbers stripped off, etc...). You can buy them at a bit of a mark-up. You wouldn't believe the number of messages I've got asking me to allow people to own imperial ships... I can make them as rare as I want by altering the rate that they are refreshed in the Black Market.

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folder icon   02-05-2005, 07:25 PM
Post #85
tse-tin

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hey quim could you put a reply button on the top of the messages so you dont have to scroll all the wat down to the bottom

but other than that i think the game is awesome

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folder icon   02-05-2005, 08:03 PM
Post #86
Magnum375

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Real quick question. Fist off, actually, Quim, I was wondering if you were planning on wiping the game when you rehosted it, and if so, how far the wipe would go.

Otherwise, I did have the idea of shared bases. Basically, like all my other ideas, its a clan thing. Basically, you can choose to have base shared amongst the clan. That way, clan members can use its repair bay, etc. Of course, new items can not be researched or created by other clan members. BUt, items stored there can be acquired by other clan members. They click on a "Request" link or somethign next to the item, and the true owner of the base is then notified and given a choice to either allow the person to take it, or deny them it. Its not a very well thought out idea, so feel free to bash, modify, praise, or whatever you want with it.

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folder icon   02-05-2005, 08:11 PM
Post #87
tse-tin

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yes i like that idea and i also think that you should be able to send money to clan members, with a limit of course

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folder icon   02-05-2005, 08:19 PM
Post #88
Magnum375

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You should be able to send money to other people period. *glares at Quim*

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folder icon   02-06-2005, 09:21 AM
Post #89
Quimquay

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnum375
You should be able to send money to other people period. *glares at Quim*

That's already in Version 1.1.

Right now, there's a 15% fee for transfering money. That should discourage abuse. (For instance, people could open 5 accounts, funnel all the money to one account, or funnel money to the dummy accounts to avoid building Vaults)

Have bases with shared features is not a bad idea, but I don't think I need to actually let people share base space. It'd be awfully crowded.

When I wipe the game, everything will be gone. I will try to keep people's accounts, but that's a bit tricky. I'll see what I can do. Sound okay?

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folder icon   02-06-2005, 07:22 PM
Post #90
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i think you should be able to send items as well as money with a certain percent of the cost of the item deducted from the recieving persons money as "shipping" fees. also quim i dont know if you got the message or not but there should really be a reply button on the top of the messages, not just the bottom

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folder icon   02-06-2005, 10:34 PM
Post #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tse-tin
i think you should be able to send items as well as money with a certain percent of the cost of the item deducted from the recieving persons money as "shipping" fees. also quim i dont know if you got the message or not but there should really be a reply button on the top of the messages, not just the bottom

I did get the message and I put in another button if the message is more than 500 letters long.

I will see how the money transfering works as is, then see about changing it after. Same with the teleporting specifics. I'll get the basics in place, see how it works, see how it's used, then change the details.

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folder icon   02-06-2005, 11:18 PM
Post #92
Magnum375

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Eh, figures that you wipe it. No offense, but many are actually opposed to the wipe. I mean, people are finally starting to get back into the game, and thigns are heating up. Not exactly the most opportune of times...

Many are also opposed to vaults too. Don't mean to state the obvious, but it was obvious by your own poll that the majority of players are opposed to vaults. Putting in the vault system would basically lower player enjoyment and satisfaction, not to mention screw almost everyone over big time with the wipe, as it gives players who are on more even more of an advantage.

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folder icon   02-07-2005, 12:38 AM
Post #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quimquay
I did get the message and I put in another button if the message is more than 500 letters long.

I will see how the money transfering works as is, then see about changing it after. Same with the teleporting specifics. I'll get the basics in place, see how it works, see how it's used, then change the details.



sweet, it got kinda annoying having to scroll down :-)

i also dont think the vault should be in, it just restricts expanding and slows downt the game. also if you follow your poll then we wont have to worry about it :-)

ok so when exactly is this wipe going to take place and have you figured out how to fix the server so that all computers work without have to change the file?

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folder icon   02-07-2005, 01:14 AM
Post #94
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lol



As soon as the new people start to catch up, OH NO NO WIPE PLEASE. Give me a break. It isn't even about that anymore. There needs to be a wipe after this stuff is implemented. The game is going to change a lot.

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folder icon   02-07-2005, 11:30 AM
Post #95
Quimquay

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tse-tin
sweet, it got kinda annoying having to scroll down :-)

i also dont think the vault should be in, it just restricts expanding and slows downt the game. also if you follow your poll then we wont have to worry about it :-)

ok so when exactly is this wipe going to take place and have you figured out how to fix the server so that all computers work without have to change the file?


The Vault is necessary to stop strong players from keeping their fleets in safe sectors. It doesn't restrict expanding or slow anything down. It's a cheap building and builds in an hour. How else can clan wars be meaningful if you can't inflict any serious damage on your enemies? It's like having a war where both sides agree not to enter each others' territory. Pretty pointless.

I'm sure it won't be popular with people familiar with version 1.0 but I think the game will be better for it. Think of it like Upkeep in War3.... not a fun feature but necessary. If it is cumbersome, I can adjust things like the base amount of money you can have, the cost of Vaults, etc...

I'm not in charge of fixing the server. Keithjr isn't even. It's the people in charge of the gaming network that war3.com is on. But I have enough on my todo list to keep me busy for another week, so it won't be until then.

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folder icon   02-07-2005, 07:16 PM
Post #96
tse-tin

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Yahiko on Archimonde

ok well if its cheep and builds fast then i guess i could live with it.

a week huh...well i guess thats enough time to wreak havoc! >-)

god dam war3 servers...

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folder icon   02-08-2005, 08:02 PM
Post #97
Magnum375

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For one, smartass, I'm not new, thank you very much. And I have a right to express my opinion without idiots like you acting like you have some form of intelligence, at least, last I checked.

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folder icon   02-08-2005, 09:07 PM
Post #98
Vortank

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I was more referring to all these people who are apparently opposed to the wipe. Just because things may be going better for you doesn't mean the wipe isn't necissary anymore. 1.1 is going to change the game pretty drastically.

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folder icon   02-09-2005, 02:23 AM
Post #99
tse-tin

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Yahiko on Archimonde

A question on the new version:

Are the right side sectors of the map going to be available?

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folder icon   02-09-2005, 08:44 AM
Post #100
Blask

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Posts: 18 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quimquay
The Vault is necessary to stop strong players from keeping their fleets in safe sectors. It doesn't restrict expanding or slow anything down. It's a cheap building and builds in an hour. How else can clan wars be meaningful if you can't inflict any serious damage on your enemies? It's like having a war where both sides agree not to enter each others' territory. Pretty pointless.

I'm sure it won't be popular with people familiar with version 1.0 but I think the game will be better for it. Think of it like Upkeep in War3.... not a fun feature but necessary. If it is cumbersome, I can adjust things like the base amount of money you can have, the cost of Vaults, etc...

I'm not in charge of fixing the server. Keithjr isn't even. It's the people in charge of the gaming network that war3.com is on. But I have enough on my todo list to keep me busy for another week, so it won't be until then.



LOL ya mean like what cotton is doing now ? ^.^

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folder icon   02-10-2005, 04:15 PM
Post #101
Zorax

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I don't know if this has been brought up, and I'm sure not going to siphon through all the flaming and whining to find out.

I'd really appreciate an "escort fleet" function. You could tell fleet A to escort fleet B, so that when somebody tries to attack fleet B, they have to kill fleet A first. Similar to destroying all orbiting fleets prior to sacking a planet's bases. To prevent abuse, there could be limits: each fleet is limited to a single escort, and an escorting fleet cannot itself have an escort.

This plan would help defend against bogus cargo fleet slaughters. Don't get me wrong: I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to attacking cargo ships, but I always feel a little guilty when I do it. Thus, escorts!

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folder icon   02-10-2005, 04:25 PM
Post #102
Pellanor

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I was actually the one who brought it up, so

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folder icon   02-10-2005, 05:33 PM
Post #103
Zorax

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Sorry.

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folder icon   02-10-2005, 06:47 PM
Post #104
Quimquay

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorax
I don't know if this has been brought up, and I'm sure not going to siphon through all the flaming and whining to find out.

I'd really appreciate an "escort fleet" function. You could tell fleet A to escort fleet B, so that when somebody tries to attack fleet B, they have to kill fleet A first. Similar to destroying all orbiting fleets prior to sacking a planet's bases. To prevent abuse, there could be limits: each fleet is limited to a single escort, and an escorting fleet cannot itself have an escort.

This plan would help defend against bogus cargo fleet slaughters. Don't get me wrong: I'm as guilty as anyone when it comes to attacking cargo ships, but I always feel a little guilty when I do it. Thus, escorts!


I agree. It's an awesome feature that will be in version 1.1.

By the way, I moved the game. Read the thread for details.

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folder icon   02-10-2005, 06:51 PM
Post #105
Pellanor

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what thread?

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