ForumsX
The forums of StarCraftLive.net


top_calendar.gif top_members.gif top_faq.gif top_search.gif top_home.gif    

vb_bullet.gif ForumsX > General Discussion > Serious Discussion > Abkhazia and South Ossetia Should Be Recognized
Search this Thread:

newthread reply Serious Discussion
prev.gif Previous Thread | Next Thread next.gif
Linear Hybrid Threaded

Abkhazia and South Ossetia Should Be Recognized  
folder icon   08-30-2008, 04:05 AM
Abkhazia and South Ossetia Should Be Recognized Post #1
CopperMineLord
Banned

Joined: Apr 20 2008
Posts: 24 pos

I agree with the Russians that Abkhazia and South Ossetia should be recognized as independent nations.

Georgia, just like the United States, is a pawn of another country, anyway.

George W. Bush and Mikheil Saakashvili are fucking kowtowing (spelling?).

Posts: 24 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   08-30-2008, 05:15 AM
Post #2
K0d0

Night Elf Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Oct 03 2001
Location: Sweden!!!
Posts: 1,899 pos

No, they bloody well should not.

Start jinxing with borders and national separatist sentiments more than we already have and you are heading into one hell of an unstable world.

__________________
Teehee.
Posts: 1,899 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_icq.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-01-2008, 11:32 AM
Post #3
Ultra_punk

Administrator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 30 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos

No they should not be recognized until Georgia settles the disputes internally. Unilateral independence movements are stupid.

__________________

a suicide bomber taken out by a suicide bomber? priceless
Masey209: JUST MAKE HER HAVE SEX WITH ME!!
Enix: Oops added an extra zero to it just like your hydro bill
CowUltrapunk: SLOW
CowUltrapunk: slow as your dick
dimitri583: i told you
dimitri583: my dick is fast as fuck
CowUltrapunk: working on your unspeakable weapon of mass atrocities?
ZoraxP: Yep. I call it the USA.
Urin Bloodface: i know ontario
Urin Bloodface: ive even been to vancover
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif im_yahoo.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-02-2008, 11:18 PM
Post #4
Black~Enthusiasm

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Sep 10 2001
Location: Quebec,Canada
Posts: 4,980 pospos

Is Georgia exercising any sort of state control in those provinces, at all? If not, what is there to argue about?

Posts: 4,980 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-03-2008, 03:31 AM
Post #5
McLeod

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Feb 09 2001
Location: Georgia, Europe
Posts: 4,583 pos

How about they first let the 360 thousand Georgian refugees return to their homes, THEN stage public votes about independence? Cause, you know, in neither of these provinces were the local ethnic populations in majority. Not until the ethnic cleansing conducted with help of Russian army.

So, no.

Last edited by McLeod on 09-03-2008 at 03:39 AM.
Posts: 4,583 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-03-2008, 04:02 AM
Post #6
Black~Enthusiasm

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Sep 10 2001
Location: Quebec,Canada
Posts: 4,980 pospos

What are the chance of them returning home?

Posts: 4,980 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-03-2008, 05:55 AM
Post #7
McLeod

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Feb 09 2001
Location: Georgia, Europe
Posts: 4,583 pos

They will be able to return home in about two days after Russia stops fucking around with separatists and starts minding its own business, instead of trying to annex few more square kilometers of land. And the chances of that depend entirely on how much pressure the rest of the world will put on Russia.

If Russia can have it's way here, expect their tanks to roll into Ukraine and Baltic states in very near future. They have already started handing out Russian passports in southern part of Ukraine, to have an excuse for future invasion.

Last edited by McLeod on 09-03-2008 at 06:01 AM.
Posts: 4,583 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-03-2008, 12:09 PM
Post #8
Black~Enthusiasm

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Sep 10 2001
Location: Quebec,Canada
Posts: 4,980 pospos

So in the foreseeable future, there's no chance of them returning home. Got it.

At least Georgia is serving as a warning to others, to the EU, that they will seriously have to think about alleviating their energy dependancy (20% of european oil need and 40% of natural gaz need are being satisfied by Russia) and that they will have to agressively consolidate their acquisitions in eastern Europe. For Ukraine and the Baltic States do not equate Georgia in term of importance for Europeans.

I hope that next time Russia start peeing on someone else's rug, they will have to deal with an EU that will be equiped with a united foreign policy apparatus and a united military. And an european squadron of gundam units while we're at it.

Posts: 4,980 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-03-2008, 04:39 PM
Post #9
McLeod

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Feb 09 2001
Location: Georgia, Europe
Posts: 4,583 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

At least Georgia is serving as a warning to others, to the EU, that they will seriously have to think about alleviating their energy dependancy (20% of european oil need and 40% of natural gaz need are being satisfied by Russia) and that they will have to agressively consolidate their acquisitions in eastern Europe. For Ukraine and the Baltic States do not equate Georgia in term of importance for Europeans.


Since there is no way for Europe to abolish energy dependence in forseable future, the only way to weaken Russia's grip is to diversify energy sources. Meanwhile, a good chunk of oil and gaz from Asia is flowing through Georgia. There is also no other way to transport these resources, other than through... Iran. Ha ha.

In short, wanting to diversify energy sources and at the same time giving up on Georgia is... fucking stupid.

Posts: 4,583 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-03-2008, 05:08 PM
Post #10
Black~Enthusiasm

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Sep 10 2001
Location: Quebec,Canada
Posts: 4,980 pospos

double post yay!

Last edited by Black~Enthusiasm on 09-03-2008 at 05:14 PM.
Posts: 4,980 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-03-2008, 05:13 PM
Post #11
Black~Enthusiasm

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Sep 10 2001
Location: Quebec,Canada
Posts: 4,980 pospos

Giving up on Georgia? For the West to allow Abkhazia and South Ossetia to become independant, it is not the same as to allow Russia to prevent oil and gaz to flow through Georgia's territory. If Russia try to pull it out, nobody can say for sure that Europe is going to take this siting down.

Posts: 4,980 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-03-2008, 11:31 PM
Post #12
McLeod

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Feb 09 2001
Location: Georgia, Europe
Posts: 4,583 pos

If Europe recognizes these provinces, Georgia will most likely say goodbye to EU and NATO. There will be a regime change and the new government will ally itself with Russia. If Europe lets us lose one third of our land like that, not one sane person here will care about further colaboration with them. And there goes that last transit route, not controled by Russia, right into the hands of Putin.

Last edited by McLeod on 09-03-2008 at 11:37 PM.
Posts: 4,583 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-04-2008, 06:41 AM
Post #13
K0d0

Night Elf Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Oct 03 2001
Location: Sweden!!!
Posts: 1,899 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by McLeod
If Europe recognizes these provinces, Georgia will most likely say goodbye to EU and NATO. There will be a regime change and the new government will ally itself with Russia. If Europe lets us lose one third of our land like that, not one sane person here will care about further colaboration with them. And there goes that last transit route, not controled by Russia, right into the hands of Putin.
Well lucky you. The risk/chance that Europe and the west recognize the breakaway regions is extremely low.

__________________
Teehee.
Posts: 1,899 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_icq.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-04-2008, 07:32 AM
Post #14
Black~Enthusiasm

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Sep 10 2001
Location: Quebec,Canada
Posts: 4,980 pospos

Quote:
Originally Posted by McLeod
If Europe recognizes these provinces, Georgia will most likely say goodbye to EU and NATO. There will be a regime change and the new government will ally itself with Russia. If Europe lets us lose one third of our land like that, not one sane person here will care about further colaboration with them. And there goes that last transit route, not controled by Russia, right into the hands of Putin.

And for how long would you want Europe to ignore that these two provinces, until proof to the contrary, are de facto independant? How many years of denial would satisfy the good people of Georgia?

If Europe let you lose one third of your land? You speak as if Europe had more options than merely emiting threats it can't carry on. If they have more cards than that, I'd be happy to hear about them. Kicking Russia out of the G8? Can Russia be ignored despite its sheer size? I believe not, since it was admited into the G8 despite never living up to the democratic standards of this group.

What good is there in pretending that Abkhazia and South Ossetia arent independant, when in fact, they are and theres very little reason to believe that they can lose their sovereignty again? There are many ways to deal with a ressurgent Russia, and futil impotent protest isnt one of them.

Finaly, there's no telling how Georgia will react in the face of western helplessness. It should be clear to everybody that nobody was prepared for Georgia's little surprise intervention in Ossetia, so its understanable that nobody is prepared today to bail them out of their own stupide mistake.

Of course, this doesnt mean than NATO is worthless. It still remain the most rational security option for Georgia, weither or not it lose its two breakaway provinces.

Georgia should always keep that in mind.

Then again...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicola Sarkozy
« Lets not go through another Cold War, lets not flex our muscles, shows of force, sanctions and counter-sanctions, these wont serve anybody. »


Thats right, lets not -again- kick Russia's ass. With Europe's ruthlessly efficient arsenal of human rights, they should be terrified, and with good reason.

Posts: 4,980 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-04-2008, 09:21 AM
Post #15
McLeod

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Feb 09 2001
Location: Georgia, Europe
Posts: 4,583 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
If Europe let you lose one third of your land? You speak as if Europe had more options than merely emiting threats it can't carry on. If they have more cards than that, I'd be happy to hear about them. Kicking Russia out of the G8? Can Russia be ignored despite its sheer size? I believe not, since it was admited into the G8 despite never living up to the democratic standards of this group.

What good is there in pretending that Abkhazia and South Ossetia arent independant, when in fact, they are and theres very little reason to believe that they can lose their sovereignty again? There are many ways to deal with a ressurgent Russia, and futil impotent protest isnt one of them.


Look, law and order in these provinces can be restored in few hours, IF russian troops, including the so called "peacekeeping force," leave. Recent conflict was a good illustration. Georgian army was controlling around 90% of S Ossetia untill Russian troops started to poor in from two fronts. There will be no civil war, no major confrontation to speak of. As simple as that.

These lands are being annexed by Russia. There are no "independent" provinces. Just two pieces of land occupied by russian military.

Also, the whole point of joining NATO was to protect the integrity of Georgia. Who cares about NATO if we lose these provinces. We have no one to defend from, aside from Russia. And if EU and NATO show their impotence to enforce internationally recognized borders, there is no reason whatsoever for Georgia to put itself at risk of another Russian invasion by keeping its pro-western government.

As for what Europe can do... well, there's a lot. Just to name few: a shitload of Russian money is invested either in banks, or joint ventures across Europe. Temporary freeze of acounts, maybe? How about increasing oil production to dump prices, which will destroy Russia's main source of income? Stricter visa rules for Russians? There's a lot Europe can do, but as always, they just being spineless in the face of danger.

As for Sarkozy's statement - you can always count on french to surrender first, nothing new there.

Posts: 4,583 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-04-2008, 09:30 AM
Post #16
McLeod

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Feb 09 2001
Location: Georgia, Europe
Posts: 4,583 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by K0d0
Well lucky you. The risk/chance that Europe and the west recognize the breakaway regions is extremely low.

Well, unfortunately there's a thin line between not recognizing them and doing absolutely nothing to end the occupation.

Posts: 4,583 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-04-2008, 10:39 AM
Post #17
K0d0

Night Elf Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Oct 03 2001
Location: Sweden!!!
Posts: 1,899 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm

Thats right, lets not -again- kick Russia's ass. With Europe's ruthlessly efficient arsenal of human rights, they should be terrified, and with good reason.

Kick ass again, when? The core concept of resurgent Russian nationalism rests on the historical fact that Russia has been unconquered and undefeated for the past couple of centuries. The end of the Cold war was more of an implosion than anything.

__________________
Teehee.
Posts: 1,899 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_icq.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-04-2008, 01:17 PM
Post #18
Black~Enthusiasm

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Sep 10 2001
Location: Quebec,Canada
Posts: 4,980 pospos

Look, I've got my version of the Cold War, and you've got yours. And my version involve american tanks rolling into the ruined streets of Stalingrad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McLeod
Look, law and order in these provinces can be restored in few hours, IF russian troops, including the so called "peacekeeping force," leave. Recent conflict was a good illustration. Georgian army was controlling around 90% of S Ossetia untill Russian troops started to poor in from two fronts. There will be no civil war, no major confrontation to speak of. As simple as that.

These lands are being annexed by Russia. There are no "independent" provinces. Just two pieces of land occupied by russian military.

Also, the whole point of joining NATO was to protect the integrity of Georgia. Who cares about NATO if we lose these provinces. We have no one to defend from, aside from Russia. And if EU and NATO show their impotence to enforce internationally recognized borders, there is no reason whatsoever for Georgia to put itself at risk of another Russian invasion by keeping its pro-western government.

As for what Europe can do... well, there's a lot. Just to name few: a shitload of Russian money is invested either in banks, or joint ventures across Europe. Temporary freeze of acounts, maybe? How about increasing oil production to dump prices, which will destroy Russia's main source of income? Stricter visa rules for Russians? There's a lot Europe can do, but as always, they just being spineless in the face of danger.

As for Sarkozy's statement - you can always count on french to surrender first, nothing new there.


- I can't speak for Abkhazia, but the Russians peacekeepers in Ossetia are there according to a treaty. So as long as the treaty is considered valid, the peacekeepers presence will remain legitimate. More importantly, Georgia's military control of Ossetia was made illegal by the treaty, and justified the russian intevrention, although it doesnt explain why Russia had to push into Georgia.

You say that "law and order in these provinces can be restored in few hours, IF russian troops, including the so called "peacekeeping force," leave", but what are the chance of that happening?

- It is possible and likely that the two provinces will be absobed into Russia, or that if they remain formaly independant, they wont have much sovreignty from Moscow. The fact that this seems wrong and illegal is immaterial to the question of if we should recongize their independance from Georgia.

The point I want to insist on is that if Georgia can't, in fact, exerce its sovreignty over the provinces, for a reason or another, then there is no point for us to deny that fact. It is not because we accept that those provinces arent part of Georgia anymore, that we wont denounce it, that we wont denounce russian imperialism and that we wont prepare ourselves to deal with the next round.

A realist assessement of the situation doesnt equate with being content with it. Its pragmatism, nothing more.

- Who cares about NATO if you lose the two provinces you ask? Why, have you got nothing else to lose anymore? I'm certain Moscow, Brussels and Washington would disagree.

I hope that you're aware that present western impotence isn't permanent nor systematic. It is mainly due to the Americans being tied down in the war on terror, to the fact that we need russian support to deal with the more urgent issue of Iran, and principaly, to the fact that nobody was prepared to deal with this crisis when it happened.

The current issue of Georgia isnt a make-or-break test for NATO and the West. We just got caught with our pants down while we were busy elsewhere.

- About European sanctions, I'm not an expert, but in my humble opinion, those sort of sanctions will lead to a slipery slope of tit-for-tat with an outcome difficult to predict, and it is a double-edged sword, in the sense that Europeans risk hurting themselves in the process. Also, I'll say it again because I think its extremly important to understand the european reaction; they werent prepared for it.

Last edited by Black~Enthusiasm on 09-04-2008 at 01:29 PM.
Posts: 4,980 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-06-2008, 03:47 AM
Post #19
McLeod

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Feb 09 2001
Location: Georgia, Europe
Posts: 4,583 pos

Erm, there's no point in discussing this further, because first you argued about recognizing these provinces, but now you say that they should still be considered as part of Georgia. Well of course the world should be aware that these lands are not under our control anymore, international recognition though is a whole different ballgame.

But about the peacekeers - formally, it was a CIS peacekeeping force and the treaty was signed between CIS states. But since Georgia has left this neo-USSR wannabe organization few weeks ago, they have no more legal ground to remain here and are considered to be occupational forces.

Posts: 4,583 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-06-2008, 11:36 AM
Post #20
Black~Enthusiasm

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Sep 10 2001
Location: Quebec,Canada
Posts: 4,980 pospos

I've never said that anybody should argue that these provinces are still part of Georgia. They arent.

My position is that we should recognize the fact that Georgia isnt sovereign over these provinces anymore, but that we should still denounce it because of the way it has happened; because it didnt happened legitimaly.

A realistic policy of recognizing the facts as they are and also denouncing how it came to be, this isnt contradictory, I think my argument as been pretty consistant so far.

This doesnt mean we should hurry and set up ambassies in Ossetia. It means we should hold the futil position that these provinces are part of Georgia.

"But since Georgia has left this neo-USSR wannabe organization few weeks ago", this means their presence isnt legal".

I agree, but it is only illegal in Georgia's eyes alone. Public international law is subjective to the individual states affected by it. Other countries and territory affected by it, such as the breakaway provinces and Russia, may understand the situation differently. Especialy since the treaty is still valide for them (but can breakway provinces sign treaty? Russia will have to prove that they can).

Georgia had a couple of options to turn this state of illegality to her advantage, but invading a territory over which it isnt sovereign anymore, shooting russians peacekeepers along the way, was arguably the worst option.

Posts: 4,980 pospos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-06-2008, 04:56 PM
Post #21
K0d0

Night Elf Ranger


Avatar

Joined: Oct 03 2001
Location: Sweden!!!
Posts: 1,899 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
"But since Georgia has left this neo-USSR wannabe organization few weeks ago", this means their presence isnt legal".

I agree, but it is only illegal in Georgia's eyes alone. Public international law is subjective to the individual states affected by it. Other countries and territory affected by it, such as the breakaway provinces and Russia, may understand the situation differently. Especialy since the treaty is still valide for them (but can breakway provinces sign treaty? Russia will have to prove that they can).

No sorry, you are quite wrong there . International law clearly confirms the illegality of the current situation and what Russia and her allies are doing is just filibustering.

But anyway, in the eyes of the western world, nothing really bad has actually been lost, aside from a very serious switch in how Russia is viewed. Moscow will start to play nice for a while, rebuilding some kind of loose trust, until things are back to status quo. When another opportunity arises, she will do the exact same thing, likely.
Quote:
A realistic policy of recognizing the facts as they are and also denouncing how it came to be, this isnt contradictory, I think my argument as been pretty consistant so far.

This doesnt mean we should hurry and set up ambassies in Ossetia. It means we should hold the futil position that these provinces are part of Georgia.
Well, isnt this exactly what is happening currently?

EDIT: Or did you make a typo? You meant "It means we shouldnt hold the futil position that these provinces are part of Georgia"?

Juggling around with border changes and acceptance of sovereignty is like opening Pandora's box and whether or not you are advocating this or not, the possibility that the US government or an EU state would accept that Georgia has irrevocably lost those two provinces is extremely remote. Kosovo was very much a one-time case and just see what it led to.

For them to recognize South Ossetia and Abchazia is not a realistic policy, since it hurts them ideologically and geopolitically.

__________________
Teehee.
Posts: 1,899 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_icq.gif im_aim.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-23-2008, 06:15 PM
Post #22
Ultra_punk

Administrator


Avatar

Joined: Jan 30 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos

No country should recognize the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia until the issue is resolved internally between Georgia and the breakaway provinces or through some kind of UN brokered deal between the parties. Unilateral independence movements have every right to be prevented by the state power, it is one of the main points of having a government. However, the tools at the disposal of state power to use to keep a country together are quite vast and Georgia's surprise use of military is about the worst possible choice that could have been made, notwithstanding the death of Russian peacekeepers.

As for Georgia and NATO and EU... honestly, what do you want out of it? Do you want the might of the EU military swooping down to save your country from the Russian bear? Do you want the European economy to hack off its arm to assault Russian financial interests? Georgia has to be realistic about the possible physical and economic gains from a partnership with the west. There is little to gain, from the perspective of a cold logical NATO, from saving Georgia from Russia, compared with allying with Russia to deal with other threats such as North Korea and Iran.

While Georgia can threaten to leave NATO or not join EU, the truth of the matter is that the surprise attack on South Ossetia has basically put you so far down the list of potential candidates to add to those alliances, communist red China will get in before you. NATO doesn't want "loose cannons" and the EU doesn't need powderkeg political situations. If Georgia wants into NATO and EU, they have to solve some problems on their own first, and that's the unfortunate truth of the matter... even if NATO and EU could help you solve those problems.

This is taking the realist point of view... what does the EU have to gain from adding Georgia to the mix? They barely want Turkey and they had a rough time accepting most of the eastern european countries like Estonia. NATO is busy in Afghanistan and the public is in no mood for confrontation and war. Most countries are pulling out of Afghanistan within the next 5-10 years, maybe you can ask for more military assistance then but i'm sure shit will hit the fan elsewhere and troops will be busy yet again.

__________________

a suicide bomber taken out by a suicide bomber? priceless
Masey209: JUST MAKE HER HAVE SEX WITH ME!!
Enix: Oops added an extra zero to it just like your hydro bill
CowUltrapunk: SLOW
CowUltrapunk: slow as your dick
dimitri583: i told you
dimitri583: my dick is fast as fuck
CowUltrapunk: working on your unspeakable weapon of mass atrocities?
ZoraxP: Yep. I call it the USA.
Urin Bloodface: i know ontario
Urin Bloodface: ive even been to vancover
Posts: 9,387 posposposposposhighposhighpos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_aim.gif im_yahoo.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   08-02-2009, 06:14 AM
Post #23
sherly

Critter


Joined: Aug 02 2009
Posts: 3 pos

fucking bots.

Last edited by so and so on 08-02-2009 at 07:36 PM.
Posts: 3 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   08-03-2009, 03:47 PM
Post #24
Kjell Thusaud

War Chief


Avatar

Joined: Aug 21 2003
Location: www.Giraffese.cx
Posts: 4,371 posposposposposhighpos
Micky Mouse on Crack

Quote:
Originally Posted by sherly
fucking-bots.


Id really like one of those.

__________________
Give a player a fish, and he’ll probably try to sell it to an NPC fisherman.

Teach a player to fish, and next week he’ll show up with the book, “The Complete Adventuring Fisherman”. He’ll start hunting for some monstrous leviathan to catch and enslave, and he’ll be dual-wielding two fishing poles
Posts: 4,371 posposposposposhighpos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif edit.gif reply.gif
folder icon   09-11-2009, 09:52 AM
Post #25
McLeod

Arch Druid


Avatar

Joined: Feb 09 2001
Location: Georgia, Europe
Posts: 4,583 pos

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk
No country should recognize the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia until the issue is resolved internally between Georgia and the breakaway provinces or through some kind of UN brokered deal between the parties. Unilateral independence movements have every right to be prevented by the state power, it is one of the main points of having a government. However, the tools at the disposal of state power to use to keep a country together are quite vast and Georgia's surprise use of military is about the worst possible choice that could have been made, notwithstanding the death of Russian peacekeepers.

As for Georgia and NATO and EU... honestly, what do you want out of it? Do you want the might of the EU military swooping down to save your country from the Russian bear? Do you want the European economy to hack off its arm to assault Russian financial interests? Georgia has to be realistic about the possible physical and economic gains from a partnership with the west. There is little to gain, from the perspective of a cold logical NATO, from saving Georgia from Russia, compared with allying with Russia to deal with other threats such as North Korea and Iran.

While Georgia can threaten to leave NATO or not join EU, the truth of the matter is that the surprise attack on South Ossetia has basically put you so far down the list of potential candidates to add to those alliances, communist red China will get in before you. NATO doesn't want "loose cannons" and the EU doesn't need powderkeg political situations. If Georgia wants into NATO and EU, they have to solve some problems on their own first, and that's the unfortunate truth of the matter... even if NATO and EU could help you solve those problems.

This is taking the realist point of view... what does the EU have to gain from adding Georgia to the mix? They barely want Turkey and they had a rough time accepting most of the eastern european countries like Estonia. NATO is busy in Afghanistan and the public is in no mood for confrontation and war. Most countries are pulling out of Afghanistan within the next 5-10 years, maybe you can ask for more military assistance then but i'm sure shit will hit the fan elsewhere and troops will be busy yet again.


You talk about this "surprise" use of Georgian military. This is quite interesting, because in fact, Russian tanks started rolling into Georgia one day prior to the escalation. It is well documented and even Russian civilians, who live near the border confirm seeing huge convoys of Russian tanks few days before the war started. Not to mention the constant shelling of Georgian villages for a week, which was the actual cause of this war.

This myth of "unprovoked" attack on the breakaway region has been imprinted into people's minds quite well by Russian information machine.

Another thing our military was accused of was shelling the main breakaway city and killing up to 2000 civilians. Russians even called it a genocide at first, to justify the occupation.

But apparently, civilian casualties where not even in the triple digits. Why? Because the civilian population of breakaway capital was evacuated 5 days before the war started. This fact is also well documented, even by the ever-so-sincere Russian media. You don't evacuate the whole city 5 days before the attack and then call it a surprise.

So basically, only a person brainwashed by Russian propaganda can call this attack anything remotely resembling "surprising."

As for EU, the point is moot. It is clear that Germany and Merkel are indeed interested in further collaboration with Russia's fascist government. Their dependence on Russian oil and gas is too huge. To a lesser degree, France goes into this category as well. But the same can not be said about other states, such as Scandinavian or the Easter European nations. Memory of russian tanks rolling through their streets is still fresh in nations like Check Republic and Poland, they will not agree to bend to aggressive Russian policies anytime soon.

So there is an inherent conflict there, and unless the EU unifies on this critical issue, they might again become Russia's playground.

EU might not want another cold war, but what else can they do against Russia's insane and inadequate goal of restoring the Soviet glory? Just bend over?

Posts: 4,583 pos
off.gif profile.gif sendpm.gif email.gif home.gif find.gif buddy.gif im_msn.gif edit.gif reply.gif
Return to Top  

newthread reply Serious Discussion
prev.gif Previous Thread | Next Thread next.gif
Linear Hybrid Threaded

printer.gif Show Printable Version
sendtofriend.gif Email this Page
Rate this Thread:

Forum Jump:

Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On

All times are GMT -5 hours. The time now is 06:36 AM.

ForumsX > General Discussion > Serious Discussion > Abkhazia and South Ossetia Should Be Recognized

< Contact Us - http://www.forumsx.net - Archive >
Return to Top

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.0 Beta 7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.