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Rioting in Tibet  
folder icon   03-18-2008, 05:01 AM
Rioting in Tibet Post #1
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This is a test to see if Ultrapunk will once again rally to the defense of the motherland, in this latest current event. I'm not even going to go into specifics or state any opinion. I feel undecided.

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folder icon   03-18-2008, 08:18 PM
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"Fuck China" pretty much sums up my opinion concerning Tibet.

They have drowned them ethnically, fucked their culture and deny them the rights we take for granted. Some of the individuals that are participating should boycott the Olympic games.


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folder icon   03-19-2008, 04:34 PM
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Ah yes, I was waiting for a topic about this to eventually pop up. While I contest that I "defend" my motherland, as I don't believe China's government is good, I think most people overreact simply because China is communist.

The reason i point out parallel flaws between China and western countries like Canada and United States isnt to justify China's actions. I'm saying we think China is bad because it is acting exactly like we do. When we can't put forward an example to follow and instead put forward poor examples of human right abuses and undemocratic moves, I don't see how we can ever expect China to be any better. They have no reason to be better than the rest of us when their goal is simply to make China the msot relevant nation on the planet.

The riots in Tibet suck ass and people have died, likely from too much police force. But what are you going to say? China shouldn't have deployed police? Then what about the african immigrants the French cracked down on just a couple years earlier? France should have just let it all go on without trouble. France deported people from their country over the incident, forced evictions and plan to bulldoze communities. This is bad. But if we allow this to occur without protest then we can say nothing to China.

I say tibetan people deserve better but for someone to say "free tibet"... when we don't allow anybody to separate? We don't give our land back to the natives. Hell the tibetans probably have more autonomy than our first nations. When Quebec tried to separate we moved in the troops, declared martial law, arrested thousands upon thousands without habeas corpus. We're supposed to tell China, no you can't use the military, that's wrong... just look at us, we ...oh wait we use the military. France used the military to crush its student riots back in 76, what difference is there to that with tianeman square?

What we should do is focus on setting an example of democracy and good will in our home country in order to force the change in others. Show that its better.

(On a side note, an ex-forumer gave me this link http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/st...5005961,00.html
Which is strange to say the least)

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folder icon   03-19-2008, 05:53 PM
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Does anyone have a clue as to what triggered this?

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folder icon   03-19-2008, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjell Thusaud
Does anyone have a clue as to what triggered this?

It's the anniversary of the rebellion. They usually hold some kind of march or something to signify it.

I assume the chinese locked up the monks or something for staging a protest and then i presume the tibetans felt like rioting after that. HOwever, since all of that is presumptions it can be as easily refuted.

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folder icon   03-19-2008, 09:03 PM
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As far as I know. China does not have freedom of speech, religion or press. The radio channel "Voice of Tibet" is located in Norway so I might not be the most objective, but why are the Chinese in Tibet to begin with?

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folder icon   03-20-2008, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urin_BloodfaceII
The radio channel "Voice of Tibet" is located in Norway so I might not be the most objective, but why are the Chinese in Tibet to begin with?

As quoted from Wikipedia, "In the Tibetan sovereignty debate, the government of the People's Republic of China and the Government of Tibet in Exile disagree over when, or if, Tibet became a part of China, and whether this incorporation into China is legitimate according to international law."

What is retarded is the fact that the U.S. and most of Europe supported the independence of Kosovo, which has been part of Serbia since at least the 1300s, but are mum on Tibet, which has a much more legitimate claim to independence, or at the very least, greater autonomy. The wonderful double standards of foreign policy.

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folder icon   03-20-2008, 11:09 AM
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Well, ever since the Mongols defeated the Tibetan Empire in 1400 or so, Tibet has been part of China. Around the late 1800s during the Eight Nation invasion of China by colonial powers, the British forced the Ching Dynasty to sign a treaty giving autonomy to Tibet. The British then moved in military forces to defeat the Dalai Lama and local military forces and subdued the area to open up trade routes.

After the European forces were kicked out and most of China was in disarray due to civil strife and civil war, almost every part of China was lawless. Eventually the communists won in China and then began to reconquest all of China. So by 1959 everything but Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan (if i remember right) were part of Red China.

Why are the Chinese in Tibet? Under current Chinese philosophy, the Tibetans ARE Chinese. Anyway, that's up to you to decide. You can split people up as much as you want.

---

In light of the civil unrest in Tibet, I think one of China's policies would work to help better the situation. Most of what's wrong is Tibetans not feeling included by the government, or not properly represented. Nobody in the east gets to vote, they don't go around rioting. Nor to the ethnic mongolians in the north.

The policy in the north is about building schools and actively promoting mongolian culture. Certain social rules and ways to succeed in society hamper being mongolian, but its a first step in trying to bring a different people into society. Education.

So I can see the policy working in Tibetan. China actively promoting tibetan culture and education there would help to cement a positive relationship.

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folder icon   03-20-2008, 12:10 PM
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the two best arguments I've heard so far from the Economist are that:

1. Tibet controls many rivers that lead into Pakistan and India. controlling them gives China greater influence in these countries.

2. Losing Tibet = creating a pro-western country on their border.

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folder icon   03-20-2008, 01:07 PM
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Ideally, I think that the Dalai Llama really has the best solution; leave Tibet as part of China, but grant them greater autonomy in self-governance, instead of suppressing their culture with statements such as the one they made last year, which was that only the Chinese government can officially "appoint" a new Dalai Llama. =/ It's not just the fact that they claim control over Tibet, it's the fact that they grind its traditions and culture under their foot.

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folder icon   03-22-2008, 06:58 PM
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Well personally i think that giving tibet more autonomy, improving education, healthcare and so on should be the primary concerns. A free tibet would likely just cause massive problems and be a flashpoint for future conflict between USA and China. All that matters is whether the lives of people improve, not whether some pointless ideology is satisfied despite the lives it runs underneath it.

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folder icon   03-23-2008, 07:23 AM
Post #12
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"What is retarded is the fact that the U.S. and most of Europe supported the independence of Kosovo, which has been part of Serbia since at least the 1300s, but are mum on Tibet, which has a much more legitimate claim to independence, or at the very least, greater autonomy. The wonderful double standards of foreign policy."

It's not so much a double standard as easier political manouvering. I don't like basing independence arguments on historical claims. For me, what matters most is what the people living in a given place really want. In Kosovo, 90% wanted independence. Add to that, Serbia's a little, piss-ant country that can't do shit if we support the Kosovars. Compare that with Tibet where it's not clear if a simple majority wants independence, and we know China would not take the loss lying down. And, China has nukes.

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folder icon   03-26-2008, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by so and so
It's not so much a double standard as easier political manouvering. I don't like basing independence arguments on historical claims. For me, what matters most is what the people living in a given place really want. In Kosovo, 90% wanted independence. Add to that, Serbia's a little, piss-ant country that can't do shit if we support the Kosovars. Compare that with Tibet where it's not clear if a simple majority wants independence, and we know China would not take the loss lying down. And, China has nukes.

It's not about standards or anything, its about power. If we were poor and China were rich, we would be pounded daily for a number of things:

1) Protection of the boreal forests which house a large amount of carbon and diversity of life. Our evil capitalist ways are destroying nature.

Compare this with the whole "Save the rainforest" stuff

2) Land rights. Give back land to the natives whom we've abused throughout the centuries and continue to abuse up to this day.

Compare this with Tibet, or Kosovo's ethnic cleansing.

3) Military buildup. USA has had double digit increases in military spending year after year after year. NATO military spending has dramatically increased over the years. We're building an evil force meant to project our evil influence across the world.

Compare this with arms build up in Iran, North Korea or China. Those are evil but ours is not.

....

I can go on, but you get the idea. USA kills over half a million iraqis in an illegal war and we discuss how we should support the Americans. Chinese kill upwards to a 120 tibetans and we're talking about isolating the country forever.

We're just going to have to live up to the standards we've set for the rest of people in order to give an example that it is possible.

It's possible to resolve land issues with the natives.
It's possible for people whose backgrounds were historically at war to live in peace with one another.
It's possible to resolve the grievances of societies which wish to separate on the belief that separation will somehow save them.

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folder icon   03-31-2008, 01:39 AM
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Agreed but we should still criticize and press each other to behave better.

This kinda sums up my impression of China concerning tibet.

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folder icon   03-31-2008, 11:52 AM
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You know that reminds me of a recent protest in Quebec, CBC (canada's state media) posted up a youtube video showing quebec police dressed up as protestors with weapons in their hands to instigate police action against the union workers who were protesting. But you know, considering how they were using pictures of Nepalese police cracking down on Tibetan protesters as the Chinese reaction, this picture was also contested in the media. Apparently its actually on the set of a movie where soldiers were playing monks for some cash because monks didnt want to be part of some hollywood movie. But whatever, ill assume its true, it wouldnt surprise me.

But see, we don't complain about each other. It's only one way. We talk about how evil China is, and then we turn around and look at france with its crackdown on its immigrant population. That started from two people being killed by an accident with the police. We congratulate France on destroying its non-French population, and say kudos for putting down some violent muslims. We sit around while US causes 150000 to 1 000 000 deaths in iraq along with 4 000 000 refugees, but hey, its USA, its okay, maybe we should support what they're doing.

If we want to be serious about changing the world, China needs to be in a situation where it unequivocally cannot damage human rights and turn around and say, its what you do isnt it? All China needs to do is talk about fighting terrorists and bam, the tibetan monks have no rights.

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folder icon   03-31-2008, 01:15 PM
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Ultra, you've got to be very careful when you say "we". I never supported America's destruction of the environment, oppression of natives, or the Iraq war. In fact, I was going through Serious Discussion the other day for quotes I put forth before the war even started. By reading this, hopefully you can see that, although the general voice of America may be hypocritical, mine is not:

Feb 12, 2002 http://www.forumsx.net/showthread.php?t=7036

this is about the republican party stumbling onto the one thing that actaully makes Bush popular - fightin. Right now Bush et alia are looking to pick a fight with whoever they can that will cause the favorable polls to continue. Most Americans think of Hussein as a villain, and justly so. What they don't realize is that taking him out without any plan for the aftermath would leave a vacuum to be filled in blood. There are Kurds to the north, and people who tried to rebel in the 90's to the south. They'ed all try to rise up again, even though they're not ready, and meanwhile all the military leaders would slit each others throats trying to gain control. It'd be a disaster. Probably hundreds or thousands would die. and the result would probably be a return to the status quo.

Nov 7, 2002 http://www.forumsx.net/showthread.php?t=15817

All this being said, I think it's very strange that our president Bush would want to go to so much trouble to attack just one man (Hussein) when there are still so many other people who could easily fund an act of terror. Bush's premise is that Mr. Hussein is a "madman" and that in 5 years he could have a nuclear weapon, along with whatever bio weapons he still has.

Now, I haven't studied Mr. Hussein's record at length, but it seems to me that , from what I know, he's a Macchiavelian style villain in the same vein as Castro, and North Korea's dictator (don't know his name :p). All his acts of evil and such are aimed at self preservation. Upon seizing power he killed many rivals along with close friends and relatives to prevent any unseen coups. This is the act of a coward who wants to live forever - not the act of a reckless psycho who doesn't care if he dies tomorrow. Hussein attacked Kuwait ten years ago because he thought he could get away with it. He thought since he's been fighting Iran for years, no one would care. He underestimated America's all too easy ability to turn on a former comrade for political gain. If he had known how America would react, he would have never invaded. He wouldn't do anything to weaken or endanger himself. However, when cornered, he acts like a wild animal, doing whatever damage he can. Remember in the Gulf War, he took american hostages, he set Kuwaiti oil fields ablaze, and went into hiding. So the more pressure we put to oust him, the more reckless he becomes. Thus Bush may unwittingly create the very thing he wishes to destroy.

Which leads me to another criticism. Bush hasn't stated what he wants to do yet, so far as I know. He's said time and again that Hussein is a threat, and awful man, and has not complied with the peace fire agreement. But what does he want to do about it? Does he simply want to enforce the weapons inspections, or does he want to invade Iraq and oust its leader? The former gets the world approval and the latter does not. If Our president wants to oust Hussein, my main concerns are:

1.As already noted this will do nothing to prevent terrorism, just as removing the taliban did nothing to prevent terrorism. Al Qaeda is strong as ever, and just killed over 200 in a mall in Bali last month.

2.How is bush going to go about invading Iraq? My guess, is we'll do what we always do - massive bombing. I'm morally opposed to it, and I'd like to see our country apologize to the 200,000 children killed (or their parents at least) killed in the last decade from weekly bombings on Iraq. Yes we've been bombing them every week for that long and we still are. We're also still in Afghanistan. It's strange how the media doesn't show any of this. If we're going to force a new regime in Iraq I'd like to make sure we minimize civilian deaths as much as possible, and then make sure people will actually get a better government afterwards. In Afghanistan we left while many warlords began fighting for power. The new interim government is weak and has suffered assassinations. How do we know a new Taliban won't take over again?

3.Why are we even talking about Hussein when the biggest terrorist financial contributers are our friends in Saudi Arabia? Why isn't anyone talking about Africa? Most terrorist bombings have occured there.

4.Is military force really necessary? For the last decade sanctions have done nothing but starve Iraqi citizens. Hussein is still able to sell oil illegally and buy weapons illegally. Before 9/11, America tried to push for "smart sanctions" which would lift the ban on food and civilian goods, while sanctioning all the stuff we don't want him to have, but it was rejected. Why not try again now?

Nov 14, 2002 http://www.forumsx.net/showthread.p...17&page=2&pp=35

But back to Iraq. Here's a question. Lets say Bush decides to oust Saddam, and then we actually sweep through with a stunning military victory. We probably won't find Saddam, but lets assume we take out his guard and all his high officials are either caught and charged with war crimes or they flee like Saddam.

Then What?

Peace and prosperity in Baghdad? Sounds great but here are some questions.

1.What do the Iraqi people think of us anyways? Are they going to be happy about ousting Saddam? How many of them will be thankful, and how many will hate us forever? What would the ratio be?

2.What do others in the middle east say about invading Iraq? What does Saudi Arabia think? Jordan? Egypt? Syria? Is Iraq going to turn into another Israel where no one around it recognizes it as a country or its government? Are others in the Middle East going to start worrying about being next, and will this cause a general shift away from the US? How are we going to form an interim government, and will it really be democratic?

3.Will we rebuild anything after, or send humanitarian aid to civilians?

Why is none of this being asked by the media? What do you guys think?
Feb 18, 2003 http://www.forumsx.net/showthread.php?t=18266
On one hand, Saddam has no love for the US, and it is concievable that he might at some point give biological, chemical, or even (although less likely) nuclear weapons to some terrorist network. Critics point out that he'd be loathe to give up the same weapons he's struggled for decades to obtain, especially to terrorists who are fundamentally opposed to him. Then again, the enemy of his enemy is his friend, so you never know. Plus the more we piss him off with our threats the more likely he is to act out. Saddam's got quite an ego. To Saddam's credit, it's been over a decade now, and he hasn't done anything, save screw around with some dippy UN inspectors. And, we all know if Gore were in office we'd be going through another 4 years of nothing happening Anyways saying that Saddam could never link with terrorists is a weak argument.

The other argument is that Saddam's got a brutal regime, kills people daily, and has subjected his country to total poverty by refusing to accept the conditions of the ceasefire in 1990. Of course, if the US wanted to stop every single dictator, that'd be a huge project, and would probably piss off the entire world - many would point out our own imperfections, which are in fact quite large, and which for some reason, none of our US war hawks seem to want to acknowledge. So if we want to attack Saddam based on humanitarian reasons, why don't we take out the so called "president" Mugabe in Zimbabwe? He's killed more people than Saddam ever did - probably twice as many.

As for Saddam being crazy, no one other than our illustrious president has made such ridiculous claims. No one could maintain a regime over a country like Iraq for 4 decades without being damned crafty. He's a cruel, calculating, villainous dictator, but he isn't a man with a deathwish. He likes his power as is, thank u very much.

As for the opposition's arguments, they're a lot less speculative, and much more pressing - and no one's talking about them. The main thing is that, much like Afghanistan, there are a lot of factions in Iraq and they don't much like each other. If Iraq were to gain democracy, they'ed probably just break up into a bunch of smaller nations. That may be a good thing but it raises some problems.

First of all, should Iraq be freed from it's regime, the Shiite's to the south would no doubt push again for independance. This brutally oppressed segment of Iraq is religiously aligned with Iran - which raises the possibility of it's joining Iran, which is itself a terrorist threat to America. Then again, if they were liberated by Americans, it might help to pave the way to better relations with Iran, which is already in the process of liberalizing. So, who knows?

Second, there's the Kurds to the north. This section of land borders with Turkey - the only secular AND democratic muslim nation on earth. There are lots of kurds in Turkey who have violently pushed for independance from Turkey and who have been violently repressed as a result. If Saddam is deposed, the kurds to the north are going to push for a kurdish nation, and kurds in Turkey might try to add part of turkey in with it. Turkey, of course, doesn't like this. So there's all this mess to consider.

These issues aren't just speculation, they're a reality that Bush has to deal with, and it's pretty sad that he hasn't addressed either. In fact, pretty much no one is.
And, there are probably other things to consider as well.

An invasion would be fuel to the fire of terrorist organizations.
March 24, 2003 http://www.forumsx.net/showthread.php?t=19157
1.Bush made a fairly strong case that Saddamm poses a danger to his own people and the world at large, but did not show how an immediate war was necessary to ensure our safety - nor did he try to. Instead of calling it unavoidable, Bush merely stated that Saddamm had it coming, and he'd serve as an example to others like him - something that frightens me even more. I don't like any politician who rushes into an unnecessary war, and I hate it when this happens and people die just so he can scare others. Bullying is one of the most immature and ignorant means of foreign diplomacy possible.

2.Although Bush tried for many months to get Saddamm to comply with resolutions, he gave him only 48 hours to flee - an insanely short amount of time to react in an organized manner. I think it's all nuts anyways. If you're going to attack someone, you don't deliberate and justify yourself for months, you just go and attack. The fact that we did have to question the war shows that it was by default unnecessary and unjust. But then, if you're going to give someone a chance to flee, you either give him enough time to do it, or you don't do it at all. I'd say a week to think it over at least.

3. I'm morally opposed to all bombs. I think there should be an international treaty to ban them. If some issue is important enough to kill over, then it ought to be important enough to die over. Americans are quick to go to war because we know we can win at the push of a button. If we actually had to use just ground forces, we'd be much more mature in our decision making. I know I sure wouldn't go if drafted. It made me sick to see the bombings in Baghdad, one of the oldest and richest cultural cities in the world. It's a city - there are civilians there. There are beautiful palaces and museums and when you bomb, you don't just do a certain dollar amount of damage, you're erasing history, and it's sick. Just look at photo's of Florence before and after WW2.

4.Bush never said this would be a long and bloody war until after it started. Why didn't he mention this when stating his case against Iraq before? Cuz he's an asshole trying to save his ass if things go badly now, that's why.

5.Bush never said what his plans were after the war, until he started the war. Why? Because if he had mentioned AMERICAN MILITARY GENERALS would control it for an undisclosed amount of time with no Iraqi representation NOR american citizen's representation, ALL so that they can get cheap oil from plundered cities, maybe he wouldn't have gotten so much support.

6.As America is being the aggressor against another nation, which it should be noted has never attacked us, nor has ever been linked to any terrorism IN THE US, if not elsewhere, America is setting a PRECEDENT. So what does this mean in the future? Are we going to invade North Korea Next? Is Bush just going to go through the list of dictators, overthrowing every one, and installing "democracy", just because he's too stupid to come up with any other strategy to win at the polls? Does it matter anymore if we're attacked or not?

7.By installing our own military dictatorship, without even a shred of democratic influence we're setting another PRECEDENT. We've never done this before - ever. When did this become ok? And, will it work?
8.After almost fifty years and 250 rejected proposals by countries all over the world, America under Bush is the first ever to go ahead against a rejection and act on it's own - a slap in the face to the world community, and not Bush's first. He slapped the world by rejecting the Kyoto Accord - also a slap in the face to America since he promised to support it during the campaign. He declared the Nuclear Non Proliferation Agreement dead in the water - a slap in the face directly to Russia which was a "real" wise move. He set foreign steel tariffs to 30% allowing the pathetically inefficient American industries to stay afloat, and hurting our own economy as well as those abroad. Am I missing anything?

9. just adding to the list - the national museum was allowed to be looted - erasing like 9000 years of history. Great Bush.

So basically Bush never bothered to explain his plans for the war and its aftermath until it started and all debate would be too late. Then we see that his plans are very disturbing, and not at all altruistic.
April 7, 2003
Gaggin I think this would be a good time to point out that most EU countries don't want to have a say in what happens after. They don't want to do anything that would seem to legitimize this unnecessary, politically driven war, and they don't want to have to pay money to clean up the mess.

As for my ideas on this completely FUBAR subject, my goals and wishes would've begun by

1.not having the war
2.starting negotiations/talks with Hussein's regime through the UN about weapons inspections and lifting sanctions (which did nothing to hurt him, only his people)
3.Basically, I'd wait for Hussein to die, as he was already close to doing, and all dictator's do, and wait for his weaker, warmer successor to start groping around the globe for aid.
4.In the event of war, I'd have all soldiers learn Arabic so they could better handle crowds and searches (we should have ground troops fluent in at least 2 different languages in the event of any war around the globe. Why we don't is beyond me).
5.Now that we're in Iraq, we'd better be in it for the long haul. If we just leave a pile of rubble like we did in Afghanistan I'll piss on Bush's grave - the second he dies and people leave his tomb unattended. Hell I ought to find out where alot of people's graves are. Rebuilding requires getting alot of food, medicine, doctors, reconstruction, environmental cleanup, and god knows what else. Basically a lot more time, money, and thought than one kid can come up with on his keyboard right now.
6.We do need to come up with a new government that Iraq will accept and that they will feel really represents them. This is sounding like an insurmountable task. As one sociologist in Kuwait recently said, every Iraqi citizen is a potential Saddam - each one thinks his opinions represent that of the people. then there are many tribal, ethnic, and religious divisions. There are animosities that'll last at least for the next 40 years between people of Suddam's regime and the people who's families they killed. Rule of law may not rule anything for quite some time. There's the largest stateless body of people in the world (the Kurds) hoping for independance. There's about six political parties in exile who are not exactly democratic, unified, or who represent any large population in Iraq. There are a lot of Shia muslims who'd like to ally with Iran. This is a diplomatic nightmare and, of course, we all know what kind of diplomat Bush is (the kind who got us into this unnecessary war in the first place). My main suggestion would be to talk to as many people as possible. Talk to all of these defacto political parties. Talk to and form as many political groups as possible in Iraq. Hold public forums - hell form a radio talk show and invite Iraqis to call in and discuss the future. Take polls, and get a good feeling of what it is people actually want. Talk to university professors and religious authorities. Then once all this information is gathered, try to act on it, in the best interest of the people of Iraq. This'd be the best way for America to show that it's not taking over (and we're not going to do this, because we ARE taking over, at least for awhile) and that it cares about the Iraqi people.
7.Since Bush claims no self interest (or interest in oil) for this war, it would be nice to prove it by forfeiting all oil profits to give straight to the Iraqi people, either in aid, or to a new, democratic, and honorable government.
8.Oh yeah, Bush should resign for being a dumbass. Until he does I'm suggesting a vote of No Confidence. You're all welcome to second it.

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folder icon   03-31-2008, 02:06 PM
Post #17
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I for one don't believe the natives have more rights to the Americas than I do. Yes the Europeans invaded hundreds of years ago, but they also invaded each other, killed each other just as they did to the natives. We aren't living 200 years ago, we're living today, and like reparations for blacks, thinking the natives today deserve something from the other Americans is just silly.

On the other hand, China is raping and killing its citizens TODAY. They allow no opposition, they stunt free speech all the time, they manipulate their currency, they jail dissenters and harvest inmate's organs, and they're about to surpass the U.S. as the #1 polluter. You say we can't expect them to be better than us if we abuse human rights, but we're not expecting them to be better than us, nor even to be as good as us. They are a far cry from us.


BTW, you can quit it with your "USA killed half a million Iraqis." First off, most estimates put the body count at just under 100,000, and most of those people were killed by other Iraqis or foreign terrorists. Inflate numbers all you like, you just undermine yourself.

Now I'm not supporting Bush on his handling of the war or anything, but did you ever think that maybe much of the world didn't mind us going into Iraq? Oh yes, the Europeans were very outspoken on the issue, or some of them were, but beyond tough talking they didn't do shit. It's a political thing. The Mideast is fucked up, and they don't want to touch it, so they sit there and watch us go in. They know the U.S. does a bangup job, we keep things inline, keep casualties as low as possible, be sensitive to the cultural and political atmosphere, and as long as we're in there, the French and Germans can talk shit publically while privately feeling secure in the fact that the Mideast won't erupt, and if it does, the U.S. is there to take the brunt of it.

We invade Germany, we respect the people
We invade Japan, we respect the people.
We invade Korea, we respect the people.
We invade Vietnam, we respect the people.
We invade Afghanistan, we respect the people.
China doesn't even respect its own people, and that is why there is no double-standard here.

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folder icon   03-31-2008, 04:12 PM
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Well, my sentence was meant to mean we discuss the issue of supporting the US action in iraq, not that we actually do support it. I think its real great people talk about improving human rights in Tibet, I dont think its so fantastic to talk about Tibetan independence. We should concentrate on attempting to alter specific Chinese policies toward the tibet region in some meaningful manner... like perhaps if we wanted to ask china to reduce/eliminate any financial incentives for immigrants into the area. We could spend our own personal aid money to improve the education system to bolster the teaching of Tibetan culture.

I think its real great people are capable of seeing human right abuses in other nations but we should recognize them in our own countries as well. I mean you act like nothing happens in our countries when native people continue to be abused to today. Canada in particular only closed down the last residential school like a decade or two ago. America is actively stripping native land away from their rightful owners... what's left of it anyways. Thinking the natives deserve a little dignity isn't much to ask for.

I don't need to quit anything about my Iraq war killed half a million iraqis. The study was done by the same group who put out the estimate of the number of deaths that occured in kosovo due to ethnic cleansing. For the specific reported deaths (the under 100 000 you talk about), 1/3 are caused directly by americans, 1/3 directly by insurgents and the rest were just randomly caught in crossfire. UN is the one that reports 2 million internally displaced iraqis and 2 million iraqi refugees in neighbouring countries. It's the worst humanitarian disaster in the world and while you can blame iraqis all you want for it, it never would have happened if America never touched iraq.

Yeah i think it sucks that people died in the police crackdown on the tibetan riots, but that by itself isnt the problem. The problem are chinese policies toward the tibetan people. Cracking down a riot is what any nation would do.


USA has more people in jail than china.
China holds about 70 reporters in jail, USA holds about several thousand in Gauntamano bay.
3% of the black population in USA is incarcerated

How about special rendition? Trying to ignore all the nasty stories of those? How many people have been raped and tortured by american security agents? Two canadians are known to be so severely traumatized that they cant do anything anymore. There are more cases of canadians that suffered that american treatment but only so many people fit on the frontpage of news.

Respected the people? War doesnt respect people. Don't get me started on the Vietnam war about American soldiers "respecting" the local population. You should also check out America's invasion of the Philippines and the genocides that happened.

Vietnam war
Vietnamese civilian dead: 2,000,000
Cambodian civilian dead: ~700,000
Laotian civilian dead: ~50,000

Korean War
According to wiki... Civilians killed/wounded (total Koreans) = Millions

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folder icon   04-01-2008, 02:52 AM
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We invaded the Philipines a very long time ago, before WW1. Face it, war was horrible back then. Back then we weren't the world superpower and no one was certainly caring about human rights.

Iraqbodycount.org is widely considered to be the leading authority on the Iraq casualties. They post under a 100,000 deaths.

When you think about it, that's under 20,000 a year. The amount of deaths that Saddam was responsible during his reign was about that, with no war or insurgents. What if Saddam started another war with Iran? Another 2.5 milllion dead again? What could've Saddam been doing these past 5 years now, 10-20 into the future if he was not taken out?

I'm not saying there weren't casualties in those wars, but I am saying that the U.S. has always conducted itself respectfully by any standards when it is fighting on foreign soil. And are you really complaining about 2 people being fucked by the U.S.? All governments fuck over tons of people all the time, it's not always their intentions, but no system is perfect. A few canadians being mistreated is a speck of dirt in the Forbidden City that is China's human rights abuses.
And you can quote me on that.

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folder icon   04-01-2008, 11:02 AM
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And i always thought it was an issue about human rights. Canada's population being that of a speck of dirt in china, it's not much of a surprise that we've far less reports of human right abuses. I cited the two because they actually launched lawsuits but there are far more problems of course. For instance, the canadian youth stuck in guantamano bay.

I realize you're american and thus view your soldiers via holier-than-thou mentality but there's not been much evidence to back up your claims that somehow American soldiers conduct themselves in a manner superior to other nations. You get some very interesting and starking differences when you go to other places and ask the locals, what do you think of x nation's troops? If you go to Somalia and ask them, western troops (yeah unfortunately including Canada) are murderers and butchers and most of them can recount how a family member was gunned down recklessly by American forces. Ask Iraqis and they think Americans do nothing more than torture rape and murder, in fact, a significant portion of the population think its worse than Saddam's regime because now they live in constant fear of open violence. Then it's also surprising most iraqis there know "You're Canadian? You didnt join the war, you're a good person." I go to America, American forces are the best in the world and nobody can touch them and they always do the best shit. I talked to a woman who lived through WW2 tell me how American soldiers were the worst in occupied Nazi Germany, where they would throw food on the ground just to tease starving children in the war zone while all the other Allied forces would just give the kids food.

So yeah, I don't know whether American forces are good but theres no evidence to suggest they are. You don't have 140 000 marines and navy seals in iraq... nor did you have all marines and special ops guys in vietnam or any other war. You send in GIs who are probably mostly high school drop outs and poor minorities with hardly any education then u shove a giant gun into their hand and suddenly they're king of the world in a foreign country. I don't sense any possibility of abuse there.

About the Iraq War casualties, i was citing these sources which apparently is really easy to find on wikipedia. Seems you can find practically anything on that site. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual...onflict_in_Iraq

Lancet Survey specifically states "31% of those were attributed to the Coalition, 24% to others, 46% unknown"

It would be quite interesting for you to dispute The Lancet medical journal.

-----------

I think primarily the topic is what actions should be taken to ameliorate the situation in Tibet.

a) Police Crackdown

China has a problem in that it doesn't have enough police trained in anti-riot techniques. Notice the lack of riot shield and baton. In fact, notice the lack of freaking anything. The problem with police with no equipment is that they're left with few choices, you either beat a guy up or you shoot him. In our societies we've now stuff like pepper spray, tear gas, lots of plastic/kevlar armour and shields, and everybody's favourite... the taser.

If we want to reduce casualties in the event of a riot, we should probably push china or assist in certain police training programs to help create anti-riot police. Even then of course, if riots still occur people can still die. For instance, even with our police, Canada gunned down two native protesters in recent years, Europe gunned down a protester at a trade summit and so on.

b) Tibetan Culture

There seems to be a great fear about the loss of culture. I think the primary method of solving this is similar to certain aspects of the Quebec solution.

What I don't think is necessary is the idea of cultural purity and racist immigration. (Like quebec)

You teach Tibetan language/history/culture/art in Tibetan schools and if the Tibetan Autonomous Region is apparently incapable of doing so, we can fund private heritage schools in the area to bolster the education system in the region.

Now, China has already done this method of schooling in all other provinces so I'm not sure if they aren't already doing this in Tibet. It's hard to tell since the media is so bent on screaming "free tibet" these days.

c) Socioeconomic Development

So far GDP growth and modernization has been in steady rise in the area so I don't see any major problems in this department. Tibet now sports the world most advanced and highest altitude mag-lev train into the region and the neighbouring province.

China has built a lot of roads, hospitals and so on in the area, so what I would like to see are some basic statistics. Things such as child mortality rate, persons per doctor, literacy rate, GDP per capita, income distribution etc See if China's policies actually work or not.

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