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folder icon   07-26-2005, 12:11 AM
Post #106
Big-Floppy-Llama



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwolf
Eh BFL honestly, I agree about some points (itemization) but really warriors destroy some classes but get destroed by some. I'd like to see a warrior beat some of the best demology locks. Any class that CC's very well and can outkite the warrior will beat a warrior.

By the way, warriors outdps rogues? Must be some crappy rogues.


Yeah, there are a few classes that can beat a well skilled and geared warrior, like a frost mage, and a lock that has gone heavily into the demonology tree (sacrificing a lot more than I think 1v1 pvp is worth). What class can honestly kite around a warrior besides a frost mage and a druid? They have multiple ways of breaking fear, a slow that lasts a rediculous amount of time, and intercept.

I believe our last rag fight we had one warrior at top with the unstoppable force and crit gear, behind him was a rogue with perditions blade and about 1/2 NS, followed by another rogue, and a mix of warriors/rogues after that. If you don't think a warrior can outdamage a rogue, wait for the Vaelastrasz fight. Check out the Manglurr pvp video I linked and tell me if you still think a rogue can match that. He's even using tanking gear except for the reaper.

Last edited by Big-Floppy-Llama on 07-26-2005 at 01:50 AM.
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folder icon   07-26-2005, 11:12 AM
Post #107
~Crusader~

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The justification for getting the high crit rate and burst damage is that in mass pvp, a warrior is targeted first out of almost every other single class. Not only that, but the warrior is also the one who has to go into enemy lines, and can't just sit behind the plate throwing out your dots or your direct damage spells. The only reason why some people say Warriors are overpowered is because we go for the cloth first, because we know thats our best chance of getting a kill before we die.

Warriors HAS to have high health for tanking. Warriors HAS to have plate for tanking. These of course are going to transfer over to pvp, all I can say is freaking deal with it.

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folder icon   07-26-2005, 02:12 PM
Post #108
Gaggin

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Let's keep in mind that plate doesn't do crap against all the DOTs and spells that warriors get hit with as soon as they rush into battle. The warrior is the first one in and the most likely to die. As a warrior, my only hope is to get my hands on a cloth wearer and hope I can take them down before I die.

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folder icon   07-26-2005, 03:33 PM
Post #109
M4tt

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So i'm gonna go grind in SM for the next few days and get the arcanite reaper to piss off BFL. Pics coming when i get it =D

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folder icon   07-26-2005, 08:51 PM
Post #110
Big-Floppy-Llama



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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Crusader~
The justification for getting the high crit rate and burst damage is that in mass pvp, a warrior is targeted first out of almost every other single class. Not only that, but the warrior is also the one who has to go into enemy lines, and can't just sit behind the plate throwing out your dots or your direct damage spells. The only reason why some people say Warriors are overpowered is because we go for the cloth first, because we know thats our best chance of getting a kill before we die.

Warriors HAS to have high health for tanking. Warriors HAS to have plate for tanking. These of course are going to transfer over to pvp, all I can say is freaking deal with it.


If anyone is targeting a warrior first they're a moron. The healer keeping the warrior up is the biggest threat. That said, I'm assuming you're talking about pvp in the sense of Alterac Valley and such when you mention cloth staying behind plate. In WSG and such, it's not a line up and die sort of fighting you can actually go AROUND the warriors to get to the cloth instead of through them.

Cloth HAS to have crowd control for not getting beat upon. We HAVE to have escape abilities. Lovely that neither of these transfer over to PvP that well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaggin
Let's keep in mind that plate doesn't do crap against all the DOTs and spells that warriors get hit with as soon as they rush into battle. The warrior is the first one in and the most likely to die. As a warrior, my only hope is to get my hands on a cloth wearer and hope I can take them down before I die.

I knew someone would bring up that moronic argument. Lets see, neither does cloth armor, and cloth armor has the added bonus of barely mitigating melee as well! What plate does get you is more stats, like strength and stamina which increase your HP and attack power. What more stats get casters is useless mana (you know, having 8k mana isn't that useful when you die with 6k left). Again, we sacrifice massive amounts of stats to get any damage increase.

Examples:
http://thottbot.com/?i=8129 damage, but crap stats compared to http://thottbot.com/?i=35727

http://thottbot.com/?i=37196 damage, but crap stats compared to http://thottbot.com/?i=36473

And it just keeps going.

Not to mention, as the game progresses there will be more resists in the game. And as the game goes on, the damage will get higher, but my power word: shield will still only absorb 942 damage, my armor will still only mitigate about 15% of melee damage, and my spells will still only get a small bonus due to the flawed logic blizzard uses for + damage calculations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M4tt
So i'm gonna go grind in SM for the next few days and get the arcanite reaper to piss off BFL. Pics coming when i get it =D

Go right ahead. And I'll laugh at your idiocy for spending that much money on a weapon that's worse than one you can get in AV.

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folder icon   07-26-2005, 09:23 PM
Post #111
M4tt

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-Floppy-Llama
Go right ahead. And I'll laugh at your idiocy for spending that much money on a weapon that's worse than one you can get in AV.
I guess you have to be a high level warrior, or atleast played a warrior for awhile to understand the importance of the burst damage of the arcanite reaper. But anyways bfl 62 ap>20 str

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folder icon   07-26-2005, 09:55 PM
Post #112
Big-Floppy-Llama



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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4tt
I guess you have to be a high level warrior, or atleast played a warrior for awhile to understand the importance of the burst damage of the arcanite reaper. But anyways bfl 62 ap>20 str

Ignoring the 2% crit, knockback, 40 AP from the Str, Knockback, and 22 more min and 36 more max damage? All for a paltry 22 AP and -20 health?

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folder icon   07-26-2005, 11:13 PM
Post #113
M4tt

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-Floppy-Llama
Ignoring the 2% crit, knockback, 40 AP from the Str, Knockback, and 22 more min and 36 more max damage? All for a paltry 22 AP and -20 health?
1% crit (barely)
Kockback?
10 damage
again, knockback?
22 more mins?

max damage = better

62 attack power
and -70 health (which can easily and more effective made up in gear.)

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folder icon   07-27-2005, 12:06 AM
Post #114
Big-Floppy-Llama



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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4tt
1% crit (barely)
Kockback?
10 damage
again, knockback?
22 more mins?

max damage = better

62 attack power
and -70 health (which can easily and more effective made up in gear.)


Christ, learn your own class. 1 str = 2 attack power.

Unstoppable Force
Look at the stats, knockback, crit, stam, strength.

I believe this math is correct, if you know something more accurate feel free to share.

Weapon= The Unstoppable Force, 2H Mace, 175 – 292, 3.80, 61.4 dps
Attack power = 900
Attack power bonus dps = 64.3 dps
Total dps = 61.4 + 64.3 = 125.7
Base damage = 125.7 * 3.8 * 1 = 477.6



Weapon= Arcanite Reaper, 2H Axe, 153 – 256, 3.80, 53.8 dps
Attack power = 922
Attack power bonus dps = 65.8 dps
Total dps = 53.8 + 65.8 = 119.6
Base damage = 119.6 * 3.8 * 1 = 454.48

Last edited by Big-Floppy-Llama on 07-27-2005 at 12:18 AM.
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folder icon   07-27-2005, 01:31 AM
Post #115
Darkwolf

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-Floppy-Llama
Yeah, there are a few classes that can beat a well skilled and geared warrior, like a frost mage, and a lock that has gone heavily into the demonology tree (sacrificing a lot more than I think 1v1 pvp is worth). What class can honestly kite around a warrior besides a frost mage and a druid? They have multiple ways of breaking fear, a slow that lasts a rediculous amount of time, and intercept.

I believe our last rag fight we had one warrior at top with the unstoppable force and crit gear, behind him was a rogue with perditions blade and about 1/2 NS, followed by another rogue, and a mix of warriors/rogues after that. If you don't think a warrior can outdamage a rogue, wait for the Vaelastrasz fight. Check out the Manglurr pvp video I linked and tell me if you still think a rogue can match that. He's even using tanking gear except for the reaper.


Ehh I haven't fought Vaelastraz personnally yet (internet's been out at home and im on vacation) but I have heard it is warrior intensive.

I guess every guild and player is different though, I haven't seen any warriors topping the DPS charts as of yet on Rag.

Oh yeah and Unstoppable Force > Reaper as any good warrior knows. Though I agree completely with Blizzard's attempts to slow down warrior dps (aka nerfing Might/Wrath into mostly PvE gear so most warrior epics won't have insane crit and agillity. But yeah, warriors are definitely gonna get smacked with the old nerf bat sometime soon, if you remember beta.

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folder icon   07-27-2005, 01:40 AM
Post #116
Big-Floppy-Llama



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwolf
Ehh I haven't fought Vaelastraz personnally yet (internet's been out at home and im on vacation) but I have heard it is warrior intensive.

I guess every guild and player is different though, I haven't seen any warriors topping the DPS charts as of yet on Rag.

Oh yeah and Unstoppable Force > Reaper as any good warrior knows. Though I agree completely with Blizzard's attempts to slow down warrior dps (aka nerfing Might/Wrath into mostly PvE gear so most warrior epics won't have insane crit and agillity. But yeah, warriors are definitely gonna get smacked with the old nerf bat sometime soon, if you remember beta.


They swapped a few of the epic sets to be more PvE oriented once they had the honor system laid out (obtaining PvP gear from PvE didn't make sense and all). Same thing happened with transcendence and prophecy to a degree. Not sure about the others.

I honestly don't see the end of melee improvements via items in sight. Read Eyonix's post here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/t...l&T=4058909&P=1 and from what a few guilds have commented, its complete and utter bullshit (more of the same old + damage/healing with meager stats.

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folder icon   07-27-2005, 09:22 AM
Post #117
M4tt

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-Floppy-Llama
Christ, learn your own class. 1 str = 2 attack power.

Unstoppable Force
Look at the stats, knockback, crit, stam, strength.

I believe this math is correct, if you know something more accurate feel free to share.

Weapon= The Unstoppable Force, 2H Mace, 175 – 292, 3.80, 61.4 dps
Attack power = 900
Attack power bonus dps = 64.3 dps
Total dps = 61.4 + 64.3 = 125.7
Base damage = 125.7 * 3.8 * 1 = 477.6



Weapon= Arcanite Reaper, 2H Axe, 153 – 256, 3.80, 53.8 dps
Attack power = 922
Attack power bonus dps = 65.8 dps
Total dps = 53.8 + 65.8 = 119.6
Base damage = 119.6 * 3.8 * 1 = 454.48

I figured you were talking about the Ice Barbed Spear. Besides, i can spend about 5 hrs in SM every day, for three days and make about 365 g (which is what i need to afford the arcanite reaper mats.) I can't spend 5 hrs in alterac valley (which is rarely u on our server) every ay, for three days getting the Untoppable Force.

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folder icon   07-27-2005, 01:22 PM
Post #118
~Crusader~

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You are right on one thing BFL, Unstoppable Force is definitely a nice weapon to go Priest hunting

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folder icon   07-27-2005, 02:41 PM
Post #119
Darkwolf

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-Floppy-Llama
They swapped a few of the epic sets to be more PvE oriented once they had the honor system laid out (obtaining PvP gear from PvE didn't make sense and all). Same thing happened with transcendence and prophecy to a degree. Not sure about the others.

I honestly don't see the end of melee improvements via items in sight. Read Eyonix's post here:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/t...l&T=4058909&P=1 and from what a few guilds have commented, its complete and utter bullshit (more of the same old + damage/healing with meager stats.

Honestly what really needs to be worked on IMO is working on druid/priest PvP survability. Mages (at least IMO) load up on either crit or +dmg and both seem to be semi-effective. Warlocks have been getting a lot of nice items recently, so much so that they can't really complain. Buffs too.

In all honesty, it is the healers who have the most to complain about as they lack DPS the most.

But as for DPS caster items not being in line with melee DPS, I think casters just whine too much sometimes, because they've gotten a lot of good new items recently.

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folder icon   07-27-2005, 08:37 PM
Post #120
Big-Floppy-Llama



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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4tt
I figured you were talking about the Ice Barbed Spear. Besides, i can spend about 5 hrs in SM every day, for three days and make about 365 g (which is what i need to afford the arcanite reaper mats.) I can't spend 5 hrs in alterac valley (which is rarely u on our server) every ay, for three days getting the Untoppable Force.

Reading comprehension for the win eh?. You'd also get http://thottbot.com/?i=40528 and http://thottbot.com/?i=38252 by getting to exalted, but whatever, your choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwolf
Honestly what really needs to be worked on IMO is working on druid/priest PvP survability. Mages (at least IMO) load up on either crit or +dmg and both seem to be semi-effective. Warlocks have been getting a lot of nice items recently, so much so that they can't really complain. Buffs too.

In all honesty, it is the healers who have the most to complain about as they lack DPS the most.

But as for DPS caster items not being in line with melee DPS, I think casters just whine too much sometimes, because they've gotten a lot of good new items recently.


Quite right on the survivability of the druid/priest. What used to make us formidable was the fact that nobody has these weapons/armor of +10 uberness and our spells/damage was in line with the stuff classes were getting in instances (Ubrs, Scholo, Strath, etc.). Enter molten core farming and our survivability goes down the tubes due to mudflation. Mages are kind of tricky, they rely mostly on instant casts unless they can root, or are sure they can get it off.

Some of the new items are good, but by no means do they stack up to their melee counterparts. Blizzard seems to want to step in the right direction in terms of caster itemization, but don't really know where to go from here. They need more 2.00 speed daggers too.

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folder icon   07-27-2005, 10:48 PM
Post #121
M4tt

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-Floppy-Llama
Reading comprehension for the win eh?. You'd also get http://thottbot.com/?i=40528 and http://thottbot.com/?i=38252 by getting to exalted, but whatever, your choice.
My reading comprehention had nothing to do with it, you said "Go right ahead. And I'll laugh at your idiocy for spending that much money on a weapon that's worse than one you can get in AV." which could have meant about 3 different choice, but i though you had meant the Ice Barbed Spear.

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folder icon   07-27-2005, 10:53 PM
Post #122
Big-Floppy-Llama



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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4tt
My reading comprehention had nothing to do with it, you said "Go right ahead. And I'll laugh at your idiocy for spending that much money on a weapon that's worse than one you can get in AV." which could have meant about 3 different choice, but i though you had meant the Ice Barbed Spear.

If you didn't get it the first time (you should have based on me saying it was better than the reaper, which the spear obviously isn't), you should have gotten it when I listed the stats. So yeah, I still think your head is up your ass in that department.

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folder icon   07-27-2005, 11:08 PM
Post #123
Darkwolf

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-Floppy-Llama
Reading comprehension for the win eh?. You'd also get http://thottbot.com/?i=40528 and http://thottbot.com/?i=38252 by getting to exalted, but whatever, your choice.



Quite right on the survivability of the druid/priest. What used to make us formidable was the fact that nobody has these weapons/armor of +10 uberness and our spells/damage was in line with the stuff classes were getting in instances (Ubrs, Scholo, Strath, etc.). Enter molten core farming and our survivability goes down the tubes due to mudflation. Mages are kind of tricky, they rely mostly on instant casts unless they can root, or are sure they can get it off.

Some of the new items are good, but by no means do they stack up to their melee counterparts. Blizzard seems to want to step in the right direction in terms of caster itemization, but don't really know where to go from here. They need more 2.00 speed daggers too.

Blizzard doesn't want items to be "perfect" like the PvP weapons. Honestly Perdition's Blade or Spinal Reaper isn't scary, the PvP axe and dagger are freakin frightening. The PvP staff is actually quite nice as well.

I don't get it honestly, why Blizzard works like this.

But the main thing I find in caster vs. melee itemization is that a weapon for a melee player is the primary piece of equipment. Nothing else matters like your weapon. For a caster, every piece of equipment is about the same (though generally weapons have the best stats, it seems) so a weapon isn't "special". This causes a main problem in that - warriors, rogues and hunters, even shamans, can grab a new sword or mace or bow and just absolutely be more deadly. A priest can wear a new staff or robe and his renew ticks for a bit more.

Fundamental problem, something Blizzard needs to solve somehow. I think they will though, eventually.

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folder icon   07-28-2005, 01:11 AM
Post #124
Big-Floppy-Llama



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwolf
Blizzard doesn't want items to be "perfect" like the PvP weapons. Honestly Perdition's Blade or Spinal Reaper isn't scary, the PvP axe and dagger are freakin frightening. The PvP staff is actually quite nice as well.

I don't get it honestly, why Blizzard works like this.

But the main thing I find in caster vs. melee itemization is that a weapon for a melee player is the primary piece of equipment. Nothing else matters like your weapon. For a caster, every piece of equipment is about the same (though generally weapons have the best stats, it seems) so a weapon isn't "special". This causes a main problem in that - warriors, rogues and hunters, even shamans, can grab a new sword or mace or bow and just absolutely be more deadly. A priest can wear a new staff or robe and his renew ticks for a bit more.

Fundamental problem, something Blizzard needs to solve somehow. I think they will though, eventually.


Meh, the staff isn't that great. As you said, the PvP weapons are downright scary compared to their MC counterparts, so why isn't the staff significantly better than anathema/bendiction or azuresong (with spell power enchant), and one of the AV off hands. Once again blizzard fails to give casters any sort of choice. Generally, a 1h/off hand combo will give you more damage, while a staff will give you more stats. So, why does blizzard only give casters a staff and not the option of both?

It's because they see all casters as the exact same thing (see pvp rewards for casters, pretty much the exact same stats/bonuses). Flaws with that: We're not the same, for example, with the PvP armor how does a priest regenerate mana? It's got a lot of health for a warlock to lifetap, it's got mana for mages to make water/mana things, but it has absolutely nothing for a priest.

Anyways, PvP rank 14 staff compared to anathema/benediction:

Compared to Anathema:
+2 more damage
+19 stam (190 health)
+17 spirit (I'd take the 7 mana/5 sec over spirit any day)
-8 int (132 mana with talents)
-20 Shadow resist
+.2dps

Compared to Benediction:
-35 healing
+31 stam (310 health)
-8 int (132 mana with talents)
+5 spirit
-20 Shadow resist
-2% crit
+.2 dps

And once you can enchant anathema/benediction properly, it will be far better due the the different enchant you can have on each side for certain situations.

Your point about all caster gear being pretty much the same thing is absolutely correct. Someone brought up the point that + damage is very much like attack power, but what melee get over casters is weapon upgrades to put the attack power to use.

Last edited by Big-Floppy-Llama on 07-28-2005 at 01:16 AM.
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folder icon   07-28-2005, 07:41 AM
Post #125
McLeod

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Newsflash: melee characters have better itemization because they are GEAR DEPENDANT. Gear makes or breaks a warrior. Casters are LESS gear dependant. Warrior will get much better with gear upgrades, caster will get only marginally better. Thats how the whole melee/caster thing works.

That being said, I understand the bitching, because I play an MC raiding mage myself, but I honestly dont see what can Blizzard do about it. More/fixed +damage gear? More +crit gear with better stats? Sure, but you have to understand that gear upgrades will always benefit gear dependant classes more than you. =/

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folder icon   07-28-2005, 08:56 AM
Post #126
Big-Floppy-Llama



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Quote:
Originally Posted by McLeod
Newsflash: melee characters have better itemization because they are GEAR DEPENDANT. Gear makes or breaks a warrior. Casters are LESS gear dependant. Warrior will get much better with gear upgrades, caster will get only marginally better. Thats how the whole melee/caster thing works.

That being said, I understand the bitching, because I play an MC raiding mage myself, but I honestly dont see what can Blizzard do about it. More/fixed +damage gear? More +crit gear with better stats? Sure, but you have to understand that gear upgrades will always benefit gear dependant classes more than you. =/


And? You say that like it's a bad thing. I'd love to be totaly gear dependend, because its not like people strtive to have shit gear. As time goes on people get better gear, I'd like it if my gear mean something other than some pitiful dps increase at the cost of stats. But let me guess, because a naked caster can beat a naked melee character it's "balanced"

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folder icon   07-28-2005, 09:25 AM
Post #127
Yuber8900

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Quote:
Quite right on the survivability of the druid/priest. What used to make us formidable was the fact that nobody has these weapons/armor of +10 uberness and our spells/damage was in line with the stuff classes were getting in instances (Ubrs, Scholo, Strath, etc.). Enter molten core farming and our survivability goes down the tubes due to mudflation. Mages are kind of tricky, they rely mostly on instant casts unless they can root, or are sure they can get it off.

Some of the new items are good, but by no means do they stack up to their melee counterparts. Blizzard seems to want to step in the right direction in terms of caster itemization, but don't really know where to go from here. They need more 2.00 speed daggers too.

Woah didn't reliize that you could get that ring there.

And of course the scariest thing of all would be when it exists Ashbringer

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folder icon   07-28-2005, 10:30 AM
Post #128
McLeod

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-Floppy-Llama
And? You say that like it's a bad thing. I'd love to be totaly gear dependend, because its not like people strtive to have shit gear. As time goes on people get better gear, I'd like it if my gear mean something other than some pitiful dps increase at the cost of stats. But let me guess, because a naked caster can beat a naked melee character it's "balanced"

No, its a great thing IF you can get that great gear. But not everyone is a part of a zerg guild, can go to MC and spend 24 hours a day in AV to get those uber items. Its sort of a trade-off - warriors SUCK pre-60, while mages own. Post-60, balance changes. Besides, if you look at class description page, it clearly states which classes are gear dependant and which arent. Its not like Blizzard lured you into playing a caster and you didnt know that melee classes would get better with good gear until you hit 60. Of course rogues and warriors will get the most out of their weapons, half of their attack skills are scaled with weapon stats; strength increases attack power, etc. There is no caster spell directly relating to any stat, except for +crit with every 100 intel, which is a joke anyway.

The way I see it, there is nothing that can be done about this baring complete overhaul of caster classes and their damage, which I dont see happening at all. Yes, I agree that its somewhat imbalanced, but its not as catastrophic as some say. You still can kite, CC and nuke stuff to death as a caster. =/

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folder icon   07-28-2005, 03:01 PM
Post #129
Gaggin

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-Floppy-Llama

I knew someone would bring up that moronic argument. Lets see, neither does cloth armor, and cloth armor has the added bonus of barely mitigating melee as well! What plate does get you is more stats, like strength and stamina which increase your HP and attack power. What more stats get casters is useless mana (you know, having 8k mana isn't that useful when you die with 6k left). Again, we sacrifice massive amounts of stats to get any damage increase.

Examples:
http://thottbot.com/?i=8129 damage, but crap stats compared to http://thottbot.com/?i=35727

http://thottbot.com/?i=37196 damage, but crap stats compared to http://thottbot.com/?i=36473

And it just keeps going.


What are you talking about? Do you not realize that the +Int increases your damage as well? Not only do you have more mana to deal with, you also do more dmg with crits.

People target the warriors first because they kinda have to. You see, casters can cast spells from far away, and can avoid the frey easier. Warriors have to get right next their enemies to do anything. So since they're right there, they're taking alot more hits.

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folder icon   07-28-2005, 03:18 PM
Post #130
Darkwolf

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Quote:
Originally Posted by McLeod
No, its a great thing IF you can get that great gear. But not everyone is a part of a zerg guild, can go to MC and spend 24 hours a day in AV to get those uber items. Its sort of a trade-off - warriors SUCK pre-60, while mages own. Post-60, balance changes. Besides, if you look at class description page, it clearly states which classes are gear dependant and which arent. Its not like Blizzard lured you into playing a caster and you didnt know that melee classes would get better with good gear until you hit 60. Of course rogues and warriors will get the most out of their weapons, half of their attack skills are scaled with weapon stats; strength increases attack power, etc. There is no caster spell directly relating to any stat, except for +crit with every 100 intel, which is a joke anyway.

The way I see it, there is nothing that can be done about this baring complete overhaul of caster classes and their damage, which I dont see happening at all. Yes, I agree that its somewhat imbalanced, but its not as catastrophic as some say. You still can kite, CC and nuke stuff to death as a caster. =/

The thing is... being an item dependant class is not a bad thing. For most hardcore players it is a GOOD thing. We want to get better items, or else what the hell is the game to us?

Anyway, the PvP staff is clearly the best lock staff in the game imo, definitely however maybe not the best mage/priest staff. I mean 41 stam is a goddamn shitload of stam.

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folder icon   07-28-2005, 09:22 PM
Post #131
Big-Floppy-Llama



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuber8900
Woah didn't reliize that you could get that ring there.

And of course the scariest thing of all would be when it exists Ashbringer


Sulfuras>>>Ashbringer for burst dps

Using the comparison of Arcanite Reaper/Unstoppable Force earlier, here's how Sulfuras stacks up:

Weapon= Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros, 2H Mace, 223 - 372 , 3.70 speed, 80.4dps
Attack power = 884
Attack power bonus dps = 63.1 dps
Total dps = 80.4 + 63.1 = 143.5
Base damage = 143.5 * 3.7 * 1 = 530.95

Haven't had the chance to get hit by it yet, but I'm sure I'll enjoy it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaggin
What are you talking about? Do you not realize that the +Int increases your damage as well? Not only do you have more mana to deal with, you also do more dmg with crits.

People target the warriors first because they kinda have to. You see, casters can cast spells from far away, and can avoid the frey easier. Warriors have to get right next their enemies to do anything. So since they're right there, they're taking alot more hits.

See McLeod's comment in the post before yours. 100 int = 1% crit which factors in to about +12 damage or so, depending on how much + damage gear you actually have. Its a fucking joke.

Your second point, I'm assuming you're talking about AV style PvP where you line up and zerg each other until one side manages to push through. In what I would call "real" pvp you're not forced to go back and forth endlessly, you can go to the side and flank them etc. In this case casters are targeted first because they go down so easily.


Quote:
Originally Posted by McLeod
No, its a great thing IF you can get that great gear. But not everyone is a part of a zerg guild, can go to MC and spend 24 hours a day in AV to get those uber items. Its sort of a trade-off - warriors SUCK pre-60, while mages own. Post-60, balance changes. Besides, if you look at class description page, it clearly states which classes are gear dependant and which arent. Its not like Blizzard lured you into playing a caster and you didnt know that melee classes would get better with good gear until you hit 60. Of course rogues and warriors will get the most out of their weapons, half of their attack skills are scaled with weapon stats; strength increases attack power, etc. There is no caster spell directly relating to any stat, except for +crit with every 100 intel, which is a joke anyway.

The way I see it, there is nothing that can be done about this baring complete overhaul of caster classes and their damage, which I dont see happening at all. Yes, I agree that its somewhat imbalanced, but its not as catastrophic as some say. You still can kite, CC and nuke stuff to death as a caster. =/



Lets face it though, the end game is ultimately what matters. Unless you're constantly rolling new characters, your /played at 60 will soon be far more than your /played to 60. Being great up until 60 is great and all, but what's the point of getting there if at 60 you start to decline. Blizzard saying "Very gear dependent class" is true, what it doesn't say that every class that isn't so gear dependent will ultimately get blizzard's dick in their ass.

I will agree with you that it's not as awful as some (even myself) say, but if you look at where we're at now, and where the game is going, it's hard not to see the growing gap between melee and casters grow to the point where nobody wants to roll a caster. Eventually, unless blizzard creates some better solution, a complete overhaul of caster mechanics may be needed.

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folder icon   07-28-2005, 11:38 PM
Post #132
Gaggin

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And what do casters do when a warrior gets near them? They use frost nova or blink or whatever their escape spell is. What do warriors do when they're attacked? They take the hits, because they can't do anything else.

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folder icon   07-29-2005, 12:12 AM
Post #133
Big-Floppy-Llama



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaggin
And what do casters do when a warrior gets near them? They use frost nova or blink or whatever their escape spell is. What do warriors do when they're attacked? They take the hits, because they can't do anything else.

Nobody's complaining about mage escape abilities (which makes sense as they have so many). Now, lets look at priests, instant aoe fear that lasts up to 8 seconds with a 26 (talented) or 30 second cooldown. It has a decent chance to break early on damage, and due to the lovliness that is server lag has huge graphical errors (you'll see them run one way, but in reality the server sees them elsewhere.

Warlocks have a 1.5 second cast (if they're lucky and don't get hit) fear that lasts up to 20 seconds and suffers the same problems as the priests' fear. And seduce if they have their succubus up.

What can a warrior or rogue do to counter this? For one, use one of their amazing slows (crippling poison, or rend) to ensure the caster gets about 10 yards away by the time the CC is done. Rogues can sprint to the target, and warriors can intercept if they're decently far away. Warriors take hits because they can't do anything else? What do you call great burst damage without having to worry about inteurruptions every time you take damage.

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folder icon   07-29-2005, 08:11 AM
Post #134
Yuber8900

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On Deathwing Casters are what rules the Battlegrounds following Shamans, warriors are generally dead to fast and are stunlocked to death whenever they charge in so all the armor in the world is not going to do a lick of differance when you have 30 guys pounding on you. At least on Deathwing Fear is almost immpossible to break either from damage or otherwise. I've been killed by Priests way to many times because fear takes forever to break and by then they're just close enough to Mana Burn, Mind Flay, and fear again which makes it immpossible to kill them efficently. I've rarely seen any Rogues used effectively in Battlegrounds, all they normally do is sneak around the back kill a caster who has been hit by an AoE and about to die anyway, and get themselves killed.

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folder icon   07-29-2005, 10:37 AM
Post #135
McLeod

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Yeah, fear rules in BGs and only a fool can deny this fact. So very annoying and most of the time it takes eternity to break. -_-

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folder icon   07-29-2005, 06:04 PM
Post #136
Big-Floppy-Llama



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So are we talking about Alterac Valley when you say battlegrounds, and if so are we talking about random pickup group idiocy? Either way, if you see fear as a problem in it you’re doing something wrong.

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folder icon   07-29-2005, 11:20 PM
Post #137
M4tt

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2 dense stones: 50sil
6 enchanted leather: 6g
20 arcanite bars: 600g
making arcanite reaper: 20g
Owning n00bs in 2 hits in SM: Priceless.
For all your World of Warcaft needs there's the Arcanite Reaper, accepted all over Azeroth, except in Ratchet, Everlook, Gadgetzan and Booty Bay.


*pic coming soon*

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folder icon   07-30-2005, 12:40 AM
Post #138
McLeod

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big-Floppy-Llama
So are we talking about Alterac Valley when you say battlegrounds, and if so are we talking about random pickup group idiocy? Either way, if you see fear as a problem in it you’re doing something wrong.

No, I'm talking about CTF, whre half of my time is spent being feared/sheeped. Trinket and its cooldown are such a joke when every single lock and priest out there make sure to keep half of your team constantly feared.

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folder icon   07-30-2005, 12:51 AM
Post #139
M4tt

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Quote:
Originally Posted by McLeod
No, I'm talking about CTF, whre half of my time is spent being feared/sheeped. Trinket and its cooldown are such a joke when every single lock and priest out there make sure to keep half of your team constantly feared.
undead 'will of the forsaken' 4tw!

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folder icon   07-30-2005, 02:33 AM
Post #140
Big-Floppy-Llama



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Quote:
Originally Posted by McLeod
No, I'm talking about CTF, whre half of my time is spent being feared/sheeped. Trinket and its cooldown are such a joke when every single lock and priest out there make sure to keep half of your team constantly feared.

Have your own priest get decursive and spam it when you get feared by a lock. Have your mages/priest counterspell/silence a priest if they gear near (do the same for mages that get close, they're not running up to you to give you a pat on the ass). Berserker stance/rage if you have a healer on you. Tremor Totems, fear ward, WotF. With so many ways to break fear I don't understand how it's such a huge problem.

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