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folder icon   07-22-2006, 06:23 AM
Post #36
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My newspaper tells me Lebanon is going to use its own army against the Israli army if they invade. I do not think they stand a chance but what will happen after Isral finishes off half the Lebanese army? Surely the rest of the Islamic world wouldn't approve?

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folder icon   07-22-2006, 01:57 PM
Post #37
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VeeGee, I'm glad to hear you're alright. What I don't understand is, if Lebanon wants you to give up Jerusalem and all that, why did they attack just now? Did something trigger this?

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folder icon   07-22-2006, 03:51 PM
Post #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenclaw2099
Acutally Canada has somewhere around 1200 to 2200 Troops in Afghanistan, and are part of a heavy offensive in the south. They are in fact fighting alongside your American troops (Along with the British), taking part in the same heavy firefights as your boys. I doubt the American media even mentions the fact that we're part of the offensive, but that's not surprising. In either case it's pretty irrelevant to claim one side is doing more than the other at this point, since they're both doing the same task.


And I've been reading some conflicting reports in regards to an all out invasion by Israel. Some articles suggest that they are only going to make small incursions into Lebanon, while other sources suggest an all out invasion is pending.


The ISAF website sites 900 Canadians. Troop numbers cycle in and out, so even though Canada sent almost 3000 troops only about 1000 or so will be in action at any one time, plus numbers go up and down pretty regularly. Believe it or not, the American media isn't some inept unculturated one-minded blob, it is a huge and diverse entity that shows many different sides and did in fact manage to very accurately report that Canadian and British troops are working with U.S. forces. It also accurately(more accurate than whatever source you're using) mentioned that Canadian troops are not involved with special forces(10th Mountain Legion) or aerial support, which were the most crucial elements in the invasion. The jobs are very different.


Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia all sided with Israel in that Hezbolah must be disarmed. I think those countries's support alone is enough to justify Israel's swift retaliation.

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folder icon   07-22-2006, 04:51 PM
Post #39
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What triggered this war, supposedly, was Israel's military operations within Palestinian territory to retrieve our kidnapped soldier.

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folder icon   07-23-2006, 08:26 PM
Post #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaggin
The ISAF website sites 900 Canadians. Troop numbers cycle in and out, so even though Canada sent almost 3000 troops only about 1000 or so will be in action at any one time, plus numbers go up and down pretty regularly. Believe it or not, the American media isn't some inept unculturated one-minded blob, it is a huge and diverse entity that shows many different sides and did in fact manage to very accurately report that Canadian and British troops are working with U.S. forces. It also accurately(more accurate than whatever source you're using) mentioned that Canadian troops are not involved with special forces(10th Mountain Legion) or aerial support, which were the most crucial elements in the invasion. The jobs are very different.


Yes troops do cycle out, the number I last heard mentioned was probably closer to the 1000-1200 IIRC. And whatever news coverage we get doesn't state exactly which American division we're working alongside with, it could be another ground divison. I just know that both our boys have been involved in an offensive push in the South somewhere near Helmand province. Canadian forces have been involved in some pretty intense firefights over the last few weeks, as we have unfortunately lost a few of our guys to those Taliban bastards.

And in response to Vegee, I've heard the same thing. Of couse at the time it seemed like Israel was only gonna focus on the Palestinian front, unitl Hezbollah got stupid and decide to kidnap two more Israeli soldiers.

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folder icon   07-25-2006, 09:59 AM
Post #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenclaw2099

And in response to Vegee, I've heard the same thing. Of couse at the time it seemed like Israel was only gonna focus on the Palestinian front, unitl Hezbollah got stupid and decide to kidnap two more Israeli soldiers.

Stupid and stupid. It feels more like Israel is doing exactly what Hizbollah wants .

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folder icon   07-25-2006, 02:47 PM
Post #42
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Of course, Hezbolah wants a victory against Israel. They think they can win an armed conflict by holding out until Israel gets tired and pulls out. I hope Israel follows through with this if they choose to disarm Hezbolah. Iran's hope in this is that Hezbolah will severly weaken Israel both morally and militarily. It's a win-win for him, since Hezbolah is taking all the hits and Iran's merely funding it. It also takes pressure off of his controversial nuclear program.

In any case, if it comes to it. Israel should not stop until Hezbolah is shattered. It may cost them in blood and money, but in the long it would be theirs and the region's advantage.

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folder icon   07-26-2006, 02:09 AM
Post #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaggin
Of course, Hezbolah wants a victory against Israel. They think they can win an armed conflict by holding out until Israel gets tired and pulls out. I hope Israel follows through with this if they choose to disarm Hezbolah. Iran's hope in this is that Hezbolah will severly weaken Israel both morally and militarily. It's a win-win for him, since Hezbolah is taking all the hits and Iran's merely funding it. It also takes pressure off of his controversial nuclear program.

In any case, if it comes to it. Israel should not stop until Hezbolah is shattered. It may cost them in blood and money, but in the long it would be theirs and the region's advantage.


Kind of like Iraq?

Anyway, i didnt even mention the friendly fire incident in Afghanistan. If you want to take it that way, you have around 8000 soldiers in afghanistan with over a hundred friendly fire incidents, Canada has had anywhere from 800-1200 ISAF, in and out of combat missions. We commanded the ISAF several times, the only other larger contributor is Germany. As far as I'm concerned, i dont care if we arent part of combat missions. Helping a country doesn't involve dropping bombs and burning crop fields.

Israel isnt going to benefit from any stay in Lebanon, and the current shit is only going to get worse.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/natio...un-lebanon.html

UN observation post bombed by israeli forces, i have no doubt its an accident, but this is the kind of shit that is going to happen. Civilians will die, 20 for every hezbollah that are killed. It's going to be the same for israel except they'll take less losses. Then think, how many more terrorists are going to spring up?

When USA invaded iraq, how many terrorists came from there? None. Not a single one ofthe terrorists from 9/11 came from iraq. They weren't funded by iraq, they weren't anything from iraq. Now, after the invasion, how many thousands and thousands of terrorists are there?

You want to talk about Fallujah? Yeah, you got those terorrists alright. Did you also read the article about how many civilians died? 1000? 5000? You don't care? How about the 400 000 displaced peoples? Homeless now that you've destroye dhte city. How about the article about using incidinary weapons in the city? Oh wait, USA didnt sign the treaty that bans them, so i guess it isnt illegal. How many terrorists do you think that report created?

Canada didnt join you on a war against an evil dictator, that shows you how bad its gotten for USA. You're losing your allies. I remember the last time we didnt join one of your wars. I believe it was called Vietnam or something like that. (k maybe not remember since it was before i was born, but you get the idea)

Israel is about to lose what little support it has if something better doesnt happen. I can understand Israelis not able to handle having its soldiers kidnapped but a full flegded war over two kidnapped people? Nobody is going to give you any slack over that. Not even USA invaded Iran over the embassy crisis.

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folder icon   07-26-2006, 02:04 PM
Post #44
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Ultra, I think that comparing USA and Iraq to Israel and Hezzbollah is ridiculous, as is comparing it to Vietnam. Israel has very strong grounds for retaliation, seeing as how Hezzbollah is a terrorist organization which publicly cries out for the total destruction of Israel. And actually, Israel's support is pretty strong seeing as how most of the world agrees that Hezbollah is a danger to the entire region. The fact that they are hiding behind civillians is certainly low and unfortunate, but what do you propose as a more effective/humanitarian soultion?

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folder icon   07-26-2006, 03:47 PM
Post #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk


Israel is about to lose what little support it has if something better doesnt happen. I can understand Israelis not able to handle having its soldiers kidnapped but a full flegded war over two kidnapped people? Nobody is going to give you any slack over that. Not even USA invaded Iran over the embassy crisis.

Again your view of the situation becomes a little too narrow, ignoring the history and leadup to such conflicts in the Middle East. It's not about 2 kidnapped soldiers, it's about years of violence and hundreds of killings. It's about military buildup and threats of annihilation. Hezbolah isn't kidnapping soldiers because they want prisoners freed, it's preparing to fight Israel and ultimately wipe them off the earth. They didn't mass thousands of super innaccurate missiles to take out military targets, they did it to take out Israel's civilians. Why should Israel wait for them to mass 2 or 3 times that much? Why should Israel wait until they get bigger, more sophisticated missiles? I don't think you understand what kind of group Hezbolah is. They are the #1 terrorist group in the world. They're much more sophisticated than Al Queda. They don't fight like terrorists, they fight like a professional guerrilla army. They've got a huge payroll from Iran. They've got many weapon. Heck, in the 80s they created the biggest non-nuclear explosion on Earth since WW2, killing over 200 marines. If Israel doesn't act they could seriously be facing extermination in the future. And as Silencer pointed out, they have alot of support for this. They have most of the Arab nations on their side, and they have the U.S. on their side. They don't need Europe's support for this, Europe really doesn't have much involvement in it.

Yes, 2 U.N. observers are dead, it's bound to happen. It isn't a video game, you can't be observing a warzone and be 100% safe. Annan made some pretty rediculous comments, saying the attack was "apparently deliberate" while demanding an investigation of the incident they already blamed them for.


I'm sorry about, but you can't brag about how well your military is doing with collateral damage when it isn't involved in any operations that involve collateral damage. Time and again you prove that you clearly have no knowledge of how wars are fought or how militaries work. I suppose your 1000 or so soldiers could do just as well a job fending off the Taliban by themselves? Come on, the U.S. doesn't need the Canadian military, it doesn't matter what wars you join us in and what wars you don't. The U.S. has more need for the Mexican military than the Canadian military.

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folder icon   07-27-2006, 02:16 AM
Post #46
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I'm sorry Punk, but it seems to me that Canada is far more aggressive than Israel. I mean, you fight wars that are not even your own. You send off soldiers into Iraq. What has Iraq ever done to you? Has Iraq bombarded Canada... ever?

Israel retaliates to a delibare attack on its land. I'm sorry you think this should not have escalated into a full fledged war, but let me assure you that this war is not one sided. Since the fighting began, over 1,400 rockets were sent to us with an aim to kill. It's only our fortune that it has not killed as many people as it potetionally could, but it injured over 1,200. It's my personal belief that injured people have it far worse than dead people, because dead people don't have to continue living with that pain. Why doesn't anyone cry for that then?

Hizbollah taunted Israel time and time again after our withdrawl in the year 2000. They have built up their supplies of weaponries not just out of spite, but in full intention of using it. If the organization's almost sole purpose in the 18 years Israel controlled southern Lebanon was to fend off the occupation, what where they still doing in existance after the occupation ended, arming themselves up, and calling for our destruction?

No, this war hasnt just began because two of our soldiers were kidnapped. The race was already set in place, the racers in their spots; that incident was just the go ahead shot.

It's war. Accidents happen, and there is no way that attack was deliberate. Israel is not wreckless. Considering that we're at war since this country was founded, I'd say we're one of the most humanitarian armies in the world, taking into account all the shit we had to deal with over the years.

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folder icon   07-27-2006, 03:27 AM
Post #47
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Actually, Canada sent soldiers into Afghanistan, not Iraq. Iraq is not our damn mess to clean up. Afghanistan has long harbored terrorists that have attacked America, Israel, India, Canada and many other nations in one form or another, so we have reason to be there.

But that's not to say I disagree with Israel's stance on this whole conflict against Hezbollah. You are right Veeg, Hezbollah has always sought the destruction of Israel and it was only a matter of time before the situation escalated into what it is now. I'm not one to condone war, unless it's necessary.

Now of course many have debated as to wether Israel's retaliation was completely necessary. In some ways I would say yes, I doubt Hezbollah would have simply given over the soldiers through peaceful negotiations unless they got what THEY wanted, and nothing else. And they do seem to be cocky motherfuckers, as with all militant groups.

The only flip side is that this could unfortunatley make the Lebanese civilians even more resentful of Israel, thereby making it easier for Hezbollah to gain more recruits and continue their mission to try and destroy Israel. But if Israel succeeds in wiping out Hezbollah and helping establish a Lebanese gov't wth some actual authority and control, then it may be worth it in the end. Of course we don't know what is going to happen, we can only hope for a positive outcome after it's all over. Whenever that may be.

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folder icon   07-28-2006, 06:34 PM
Post #48
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It's always unfortunate when civillians die. Unfortunate may even be too light; disastrous and horrible is more close to it. Thing is though, when you are fighting a guerilla army whose tactic is to hide behind civilian villages and civillian areas, while still conducting operations out of those areas, it becomes very difficult to retaliate without harming innocent people. A grisly way to do war, yes, but personally I don't see an easy soultion to that problem, except dropping leaflets announcing intent to bomb a particular area, which the Israeli military has been doing.

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folder icon   07-29-2006, 10:36 AM
Post #49
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I'm against the bombing. I think Israel could either just hold the border and shoot back - possibly bombing just those Hezbollah that are shooting rockets - or invade with ground forces. Either way, less civilians get hit.

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folder icon   07-29-2006, 02:38 PM
Post #50
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It's hard to hit Hezbollah fighters that shoot the Katyushas. The missiles are mobile and very well hidden. The larger missiles they recently launched can be taken out as soon as they're fired since they're stationary, but civilian casualties are an inevitability. I think Israel is doing prety much al it can do to limit civilian deaths; they drop flyers whenever they're getting ready to bomb a place. I can't feel too sorry for alot of the civilians, many of them support Hezbolah and want Israel to be destroyed.

It makes no sense to send in ground forces without aerial bombing. That would lead to many Israeli deaths. The Israeli army is probably best in the world when it comes to limiting civilian deaths in urban combat, but you'd still see a bloodbath anyway. I think Hezbolah is starting to realize that it can't win this war... they've talked about a ceasefire with international forces involved in the Lebanese Parliament. They may be looking to stop this before they lose too much. As for as I'm concerned, they should be completely disarmed.

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folder icon   07-29-2006, 03:19 PM
Post #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silencer-7
Ultra, I think that comparing USA and Iraq to Israel and Hezzbollah is ridiculous, as is comparing it to Vietnam. Israel has very strong grounds for retaliation, seeing as how Hezzbollah is a terrorist organization which publicly cries out for the total destruction of Israel. And actually, Israel's support is pretty strong seeing as how most of the world agrees that Hezbollah is a danger to the entire region. The fact that they are hiding behind civillians is certainly low and unfortunate, but what do you propose as a more effective/humanitarian soultion?

Mmm true enough...

Multinational force is what i think is a more effective/humanitarian solution. A house to house style campaign random indiscriminate aerial bombardment. Yeah they hide behind civilians... women, children, foreigners. So then you just go ahead and bomb them too? I dont see the logic. In my mind its unacceptable losses but i tend not to support fighting any war at all.

A multinational force, especially one made up with support of Arab countries would be able to be more humane in dealing with the situation. The more soldiers that make a presence, the less area the Hezbollah can fire rockets.

You're right in that comparing this to Iraq which has done nothing to USA is not like this war but it would be unfair to state that Israel hasnt done a lot to Lebanon. (After all theres 50 000 canadians in Lebanon because of the refugees we accepted, the same didnt happen for israel) The Hezbollah sprung up after Israel occupied the country not before. Terrorists use deplorable tactics, but they rise from hate that has to exist beforehand. If we never address the root issues for both the Israelis and the Lebanese there will always be more young Lebanese going into the Hezbollah army and Israel is going to always question what it should do in "self-defence".

(To Gaggin)
The comment "Apparently deliberate" by Annan was about how Israel bombed the area for 6 hours before dropping a laser-guided bunker buster into the UN bomb shelter. The soldiers inside tried to plea for help but they died. One from China, Austra, Finland and Canada. Deliberate? I dont know, but it sure wasnt an accident.

(To Veegee)
Im a lil confused you think that Canada went into Iraq, right after i made a post saying how we didnt...

Here, Im sure nobody outside canada learns our history (nooo!) so ill just give you some brief notes on the wars we've recently been to.

2001- Afghanistan... like i said, i think this was mostly a mistake, more now than before. Government seems content to follow US policy when we should be doing humanitarian work.

1950 - Korean war, we sent something like 60 000 troops during the trench warfare. Like most wars, this was fairly stupid.

These were the "wars", so i didnt include peacekeeping operations. Those are all sanctioned by the UN. Its probably the first time i heard someone say Canada was more aggressive than some other country.

(Not to anyone in particular)
Its suprising to me how much people think war solves problems. War created the Hezbollah in the first place, and yet the Israeli government thinks war will make them go away. Tit for tat? Eye for an eye? Overall, everybody loses out.

In the long run, terrorists dont exist. We shouldnt commit ourselves to long term changes for a short term problem.

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folder icon   07-30-2006, 12:22 AM
Post #52
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Fine Ultra, sorry. My bad. You did not go into Iraq. My stance still stands. Opposed to Canada, Israel has never went into war with a country that posed no threat to it. First time you heard that Canada is one of the most aggressive countries in the world? Well, get used to it, it's my new thing now.

With all due respect to innocent Lebanese civillian lives, it's not enough justification for Israel to send in their own troops as an alternative to air strikes, increasing the chances of higher mortality rates on its own end. I'm sorry everyone fails to see the logic in this. Lets take Vietnam into example... I hardly think the wail about how that war was wrong began because American citizens felt sorry for the poor Vietnamese. The major movement against that war started because more and more coffins of dead American soldiers were brought back home. As that number increased, more Americans started questioning what the hell are we doing there? Our kids are dying, lets go out. And that's regardless to wether or not the war was justifiable, that's besides the point right now, since this isnt a discussion about the Vietnam war. I just wanted to make sure we all know what was one of the main key factors in why that war ended and considered a failure.

Israel has goals to achieve, and that is to cripple Hizbollah as much as possible within a limited time frame (as long as the world backs us up on it) and maintaing unity at home. That unity will be lost if we have a lot of our own soldiers dead. The goal of this operation is to have a little Israeli casualties as possible. No dead soldiers and no dead civillians. We air strike Lebanon so soldiers won't have to invade Lebanon and die, AND to destroy rocket launchers that aim to kill our civillians. They way I see it, from Israel's side, it's a win situation. Poor Lebanese? Well, here's a simple solution to Lebanon -- don't attack Israel. Lebanon is held responsible for letting Hizbollah roam and act freely, and Lebanon should actually be grateful that most targets attacked are Hizbollah's.

Hizbollah actually existed before Israel invaded Lebanon, and if I'm not mistaken they were founded in 69. They just shifted their focus towards anti-Zinonism after the (first) Lebanese war started, and renamed themselves Hizbollah around 82-84.

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folder icon   07-30-2006, 02:33 AM
Post #53
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You think the efforts in the Korean war were stupid Ultra? Just look at what allowed to happen in South Korea. It's one of the most advanced nations in the world. My girlfriend is from there, they live quite well and are very productive. That wouldn't have happened without the Korean war.


Don't worry Veeg, I and alot of other Americans see the logic in it. Other countries have the luxury of decouncing the actions of those who fight terrorism, but they have never waged war against terrorists themselves. I have great respect for the Israeli military, as it is literally the most experienced in the world. I've done a few studies on the Arab-Israeli wars, and the sheer genius and determination that the Israelis have shown over the years amazes me. The 6 day war in particular was pretty much military perfection. And despite the criticism, the IDF is incredibly good at avoiding civilian casualties. Human Rights Watch even said that the low rate of civilian casualties in Jenin was unsurpassed in the history of urban combat.

When fighting such a war, you can't be too concerned with creating hatred. In the Mideast, the hatred is already there. There is no excusing the attacks on Israelis, it is not a matter of them invading the Mideast, it is a matter of certain Muslims hating Jews and wanting to destroy them. The creation of Israel did not spark this, Palestinians have been carrying out attacks against Jews since before WW1.

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folder icon   07-30-2006, 02:28 PM
Post #54
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This war will end soon. It may take another day or two, or perhaps a week or two, but it will end, soon. We'll hang on, then lick our wounds, then gather our strength and hurry back to our commercials, our vacations, and our music festivals. Hizbollah would absorb an immense military blow, and we may buy a temporary false period of quiet subsidized by some scarecrow multinational force equipped with hot pants and binoculars, and we may even return the kidnapped soldiers with some dobious deal, which will eventually enable both sides to swallow the frog. But the outcome be as it may be, from this war in Lebanon, that was imposed on us, we will not march victorious.

We will not win this war, because Hizbollah cannot be unrooted from Lebanon such as fundementalistic Islam cannot be unrooted from the Arab nations. We will not win, because an anti-democratic group (and that's not margin in he Muslim World) stands on the other side, which have their legitimization embedded with deceit and fraud. A group which built itself using an imaginery image of themselves without having empiric methodicness, free converse, and a sense of criticism. Even if Israeli tanks would stand on the outskirts of Beirut, Nasrallah would present himself as the next Salah-A'hdin, and even if all his warriors would fall in combat - he'd declare the downfall of the Zionists, and all his followers (and there are many of them) would only embrace and strengthen his false preachings. But above all, we will not win this war because it's only a battle, a promo to the real war that can already be spotted up ahead: World War III - The Muslim fight against the free World.

The similarities between 1993 to 2006 are amazing. Back then the world witnessed some weirdo who conquered the rule over Germany. He was a linear character, almost comical (Chaplin's 'Big Dicatotr', anyone?) who developed a diabolical ideology to wipe the free world off the face of the planet. Today, Iran's president Ahmadi Neghad is portrayed in the eyes of many as nothing more than a violent punk that cannot filter his words. But he, just like Hitler, is not linear and is not alone. Behind him march many fanatics that replaced the roar of 'Zieg Hail' with the roar of 'Allah-Wahkbar'.

That World War began due to deep inferiorty feelings and sick national chauvinism, and the one on our doorstep looms to be the same (there is no other society today that oppresses women more and has deeper inferiority complexes than that of Islam). These inferiority feelings in that hateful society gave birth to an oily machenaism of brain wash, which operates in houses, in mosques, in educational institutions and in the media. Nasrallah kidnapped soldiers and bombed settlements not in the name of some Lebanese or Palestinian interest, but in the name of an organized religios platform, that is entirely aimed towards destroying Jews and the state of Israel. And again, as before, the center of hate, the spiritual generator that fuels and combines the ravaging riff raff against the entire free world, is the Jewish stereotype. In those days it was the stereotype of the ugly merchant from the Protocols of Zion's Elders, that conspiers to take over the world, or perhaps of the Communist Jew that schemes to destory the cultural Aryian Europe. And today, it's the 'Settler' Jew (in all the areas of Palestine, from the sea to the river) who combined arms with the 'greater devil' (USA) in a crusade to conquer all of Muslim land, desecrate their holy places, and drink the blood of Palestinian childern.

The rhetoric is almost identical. Just listen to what they say there, from Iran to Gaza, and Lebanon to Syria, Saudia, and Eygpt. In a speech that the Chairman of the Iranian Parliment recently gave, he described Nasrallah as one whose Homeini's blood flows in his veins. Indeed that is the case. This blood boils in the veins of thousands of religios clerics and preachers, and beats on the temples of masses of potential shahids, that are good and ready to commit suicide just to earn Allah's good grace by spilling the blood of the Jewish devil. And all those politicians and Western holders of opinion, headed by media tycoons, are aiming their lenses and focus only to the destruction that Israeli artillery caused (as if we initiated this war, and as if we killed innocent citizens out of dull of senses and moral thickness), and speak in double standard on 'quantities' - all those offsprings of Europeans that rolled their eyes in that dreadful war. They assist directly and indirectly to update the image of the devil: From the exiled Jew to the 'New Jew', the Israeli born, and are not doing much to prevent the fundementalistic finger to press the button that would, god forbid, lift six million 'New Jews' to the sky in the nuclear furance of the global age. And we Jews? Here and now, sink our heads in the sand, denying the new Nazism - which is the Islamic Fundementalism.

Could the clock of the new antisemtisim, which is directed towards the state of Israel, be stopped? Maybe this battle, which revealed a bit of the true motives of the Islamic Fundementalism, will wake the jackals. Maybe this time, unlike before, the Western World will wake on time.

---
Translated by me, written by some Israeli professor.

I know it sounds kind of paranoid, and very allegating. Talkback if you need any clarifications.

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folder icon   07-30-2006, 02:41 PM
Post #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk


In the long run, terrorists dont exist. We shouldnt commit ourselves to long term changes for a short term problem.


I think this is a naive statement. Terrorists/Violent Fundamentalists have always existed, long before the 20th century, and my guess is that they will continue to exist for a long time yet. In any society there is a good chance of an extremist group that springs up which operates on it's own terms. Call them freedom fighters, terrorists, whatever; it all amounts to the same thing. And the conflict in the middle east is barely what I would call a short term problem.

In response to Gaggin, I both agree and disagree. Though I concur that arab nations have sparked most of the armed combat against Israel, and a country has the right to defend itself and its people, there still is the fact that the blame is inevitably shared. It isn't the fact that Israel retaliates, it's the degree of retaliation. For instance, after the 1956 Sinai campaign, there were some guerrila attacks into Israel from the Syrian border. Israel responded with massive raids deep into Syrian and Jordanian territory. Also, many times Israel has refused peace proposals from Arab nations, primarily not wanting to give up "won" land. I'll give you an example that followed the Yom Kippur War.

In February 1971, Anwar Sadat, who had succeeded to the Egyptian presidency on Nasser's death in 1970, proposed a full peace treaty, including security guarantees and a return to the pre-1967 borders. That was not all. Also in 1971 Jordan again proposed to recognize Israel if it would return to its prewar borders. Egypt and Jordan accepted UN Resolution 242, passed in November 1967, that called for an Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories in return for peace and security. Both Arab states also accepted the land-for-peace plan of Secretary of State William Rogers and the efforts of UN representative Gunnar Jarring to find a solution.

Israel turned a deaf ear to each proposal for peace, rejected the Rogers plan, snubbed Jarring, and equivocated on Resolution 242.(141) At that time Israel and Egypt were engaged in a war of attrition across the Suez Canal. Israel flew air raids deep into Egypt and bombed civilians near Cairo. Soviet pilots and missiles participated in the defense of Egypt.

I think you are also wrong in the respect that "we dont have to worry about causing hatred because it will be there anyways." The healing process has to start somewhere, and if both sides of the conflict are unwilling to take steps to halt the violence, then people will continue to die. I'll admit, I'm a bit biased towards Israel because of my heritage, and I also believe that many of the steps it takes in it's defense are justified in a region that calls for it's destruction. However, there is blame on both sides of the conflict, and hatred is diefinately fueled in the people of arab nations whose families or homes are destroyed by Israeli military attacks, be they intentional or inintentional.

War is a messy thing, especially when it's grounded firmly in history.

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folder icon   08-02-2006, 08:50 AM
Post #56
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Okay, I haven't been following this (I mean, what's the use? The same thing will happen again in five years) but the news said Israel has been attacking apartment buildings in Lebanon? What's the deal?

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folder icon   01-14-2007, 05:51 PM
Post #57
Spliff Smoking Lab Chimp

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaggin
Again your view of the situation becomes a little too narrow, ignoring the history and leadup to such conflicts in the Middle East. It's not about 2 kidnapped soldiers, it's about years of violence and hundreds of killings. It's about military buildup and threats of annihilation. Hezbolah isn't kidnapping soldiers because they want prisoners freed, it's preparing to fight Israel and ultimately wipe them off the earth. They didn't mass thousands of super innaccurate missiles to take out military targets, they did it to take out Israel's civilians. Why should Israel wait for them to mass 2 or 3 times that much? Why should Israel wait until they get bigger, more sophisticated missiles? I don't think you understand what kind of group Hezbolah is. They are the #1 terrorist group in the world. They're much more sophisticated than Al Queda. They don't fight like terrorists, they fight like a professional guerrilla army. They've got a huge payroll from Iran. They've got many weapon. Heck, in the 80s they created the biggest non-nuclear explosion on Earth since WW2, killing over 200 marines. If Israel doesn't act they could seriously be facing extermination in the future. And as Silencer pointed out, they have alot of support for this. They have most of the Arab nations on their side, and they have the U.S. on their side. They don't need Europe's support for this, Europe really doesn't have much involvement in it.

Yes, 2 U.N. observers are dead, it's bound to happen. It isn't a video game, you can't be observing a warzone and be 100% safe. Annan made some pretty rediculous comments, saying the attack was "apparently deliberate" while demanding an investigation of the incident they already blamed them for.


I'm sorry about, but you can't brag about how well your military is doing with collateral damage when it isn't involved in any operations that involve collateral damage. Time and again you prove that you clearly have no knowledge of how wars are fought or how militaries work. I suppose your 1000 or so soldiers could do just as well a job fending off the Taliban by themselves? Come on, the U.S. doesn't need the Canadian military, it doesn't matter what wars you join us in and what wars you don't. The U.S. has more need for the Mexican military than the Canadian military.


Thats laughable. You require the NATO presence in Afghanistan, including the Canadian contingent (and not the Mexican, which doesn't exist), to help do your dirty work because your military is strained and lacks signifigant capacity to take on expanded operations around the world. This is mostly due to someone's bright idea to reshape the middle east by giving the gift of freedom to Iraq. Apparently it didn't go well. You should be tremendously grateful that NATO is willing to help your ass out, because you couldn't do it on your own.

All you need the Mexican Army for is to maintain the neo-colonial status quo that enables American corporate elites to ravage the country in the name of free trade. So it's of obvious economic importance to you, but I wouldn't characterize it as a need.

So occupied peoples develop an intense hatred of those that oppress them that can last beyond the occupation, imagine that, learn something new every day I guess.

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folder icon   01-14-2007, 11:50 PM
Post #58
Gaggin

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NATO is indeed a big help in Afghanistan. Our military is ineed strained, though you would do well to remember that much of that strain comes from protecting NATO countries. That's why NATO exists in the first place. Despite our strain, Canada could pull out right now and we'd have no problem replacing a 1000 soldiers on our own.

And you are quite ignorant about they economics works, aren't you? The Mexican people have benefited from the U.S. far more than Mexico. You also forget that Canada has corporate elites too, and they practice the same free trade as the U.S.

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folder icon   01-16-2007, 04:00 AM
Post #59
Spliff Smoking Lab Chimp

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaggin
NATO is indeed a big help in Afghanistan. Our military is ineed strained, though you would do well to remember that much of that strain comes from protecting NATO countries. That's why NATO exists in the first place. Despite our strain, Canada could pull out right now and we'd have no problem replacing a 1000 soldiers on our own.

And you are quite ignorant about they economics works, aren't you? The Mexican people have benefited from the U.S. far more than Mexico. You also forget that Canada has corporate elites too, and they practice the same free trade as the U.S.


None of the strain comes from protecting NATO countries. The eighties ended some time ago. US and Canadian military strength has vacated Germany what with the threat to Europe having diminished somewhat. Most of the US force that was there moved to the Middle East during the first gulf war. Signifigant strength remained in East Asia, South Korea in particular. Alot is also taken up projecting strength into former Soviet republics, Central Asia and the like. None of it is protecting other NATO countries, NATO countries are assisting in the American war in Afghanistan. It is really only the UK and Canada that are doing so in a combat role. The US needs this help right now, it could not simply replace the Canadians.

Opposition to globalization does not require ignorance of economics, if any thing it requires above average understanding. The Mexican people have not benifited from NAFTA, much like the American and Canadian people. I have no idea what the hell you mean to accomplish by mentioning that Canada has corporate elites, did I at any point say that Canada doesn't? I know we do, I don't particularly appreciate the fact and am opposed to policies that benifit them. Have I done or said something that gives a different impression?

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folder icon   01-19-2007, 11:44 PM
Post #60
Gaggin

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spliff Smoking Lab Chimp
None of the strain comes from protecting NATO countries. The eighties ended some time ago. US and Canadian military strength has vacated Germany what with the threat to Europe having diminished somewhat. Most of the US force that was there moved to the Middle East during the first gulf war. Signifigant strength remained in East Asia, South Korea in particular. Alot is also taken up projecting strength into former Soviet republics, Central Asia and the like. None of it is protecting other NATO countries, NATO countries are assisting in the American war in Afghanistan. It is really only the UK and Canada that are doing so in a combat role. The US needs this help right now, it could not simply replace the Canadians.

Opposition to globalization does not require ignorance of economics, if any thing it requires above average understanding. The Mexican people have not benifited from NAFTA, much like the American and Canadian people. I have no idea what the hell you mean to accomplish by mentioning that Canada has corporate elites, did I at any point say that Canada doesn't? I know we do, I don't particularly appreciate the fact and am opposed to policies that benifit them. Have I done or said something that gives a different impression?


Actually... The 2nd largest force in Afghanistan after the U.S. is Germany, not Canada. Likewise, we have about 180,000 troops cycling through Europe, 100,000 of which are in Germany. To say that other NATO countries shouldn't help us now because they don't need help back at this point in time is silly. It's a treaty of mutual protection, and it goes both ways.

How do you know Mexico has not benefited from NAFTA? Their economy is in shambles, held down by its own government. It is not quite clear what benefits them and what doesn't. What is clear is that similar free trade agreements have already benefited many Central American nations (CAFTA). For some reason Mexico is content to let its citizens leave and reap the huge profits to be made just across the border. I guess that's their choice. But don't say it's corporate elites in the U.S. robbing the Mexicans blind, those corporate elites are the reason Mexicans come to the U.S. in the first place.

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folder icon   01-21-2007, 03:03 AM
Post #61
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There seems to be some weird discussions here now that i go back to this thread after some time.

USA does not protect NATO allies. There's basically nothing your soldiers do for the rest of us. I'm not too sure about what you think you're protecting us from, but well you're not doing much. Your warships are not allowed in other people's waters. Germany isn't facing some imminent invasion. Canada is usually screwed over by US military operations in our waters or our soil.

When NATO is in afghanistan we're helping USA out, and some of us might be trying to help afghanistan out. There's no other way to look at it. If we pulled out, it could "not make a difference" to you... it'll just mean you bleed even more resources. If you don't care about the fact you're spending 500 bn on the military + 100 bn for extra war funding, then by all means, forget the useless NATO that strains your military, go it alone everywhere. If what you say is true, then your military costs should decrease.

Trade is a two way street. Typically its not so easy to say one side is benefiting more than the other. Here it seems to me you are implying that Mexico should be greatful for NAFTA, and worship USA as its god for all its economic success. Unfortunately, thats not how it works. USA isn't rich because it is simply rich, it's rich because others are willing to trade with it. When a nation trades with USA, USA isn't doing it a favour, your country profits about as much as the other nation. This is assuming that the trade agreement results in total free trade, but in reality, NAFTA usually means slightly lower US tarriffs and we drop our tarriffs in an unfair fashion.

It's a lopsided gain in Mexico for the free trade. Farmers got screwed over, but they got some more factory jobs. Did they get a lot better? Hard to say. American tarriffs on imported mexican goods haven't really dropped too much, and i dont have numbers on what the trade is like between US and mexico.

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folder icon   07-07-2008, 05:51 PM
Post #62
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A year and a half later, and I still share the same catalystic predictions. War is coming, slowly creeping forward, one press release or press conference at a time, one news report on television at a time, blog by blog, paper by paper. It's coming. This time, Israel is going to be the one attacking, we're going to bomb Iran to try and destroy their nuclear facilities or at least hinder their attempts at obtaining the technology.

I thought it's going to be within three years, just before they will assumingly finish the construction of all nuke sites and have all the materials they need to produce a bomb, and figure out how to mount a nuclear warhead on a missile. Israel, just around that time, will finish constructing three different unique anti-missile and anti-rocket systems and spread them all over the country. That is the time frame. But apparently, according to news reports that are flooding from the USA, we're going to bomb Iran after the US election, before Bush leaves office. That means less than a year.

Apparently we've practiced flight formations between Cyprus and Greece that simulate the kind of of formations we would be needing when flying over Persia, and that sources in our state department constantly hint at an upcoming military operation.

What do you reckon will happen?

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folder icon   07-07-2008, 08:04 PM
Post #63
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Well i'm still as pacifist as i was back then... but i'm trying gauge the personality of Iran. It's difficult because Iranian government has to balance between its disgust for Israel and its general losses from a conflagration in the mid-east. I largely suspect Iran will take it up the ass from an Israeli bombing, let the USA showboat its navy near its shores around the oil pipeline and then roll in a super fascist regime based on the destroying the "evil zionists and corrupt capitalists". That's how you run a democracy afterall, if I've learned anything from Bush, the Israel bombing of any nuclear site in Iran will be a 9/11 for them.

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folder icon   07-07-2008, 10:40 PM
Post #64
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To have a contigency plan ready for Iran doesnt mean that an actual war with Iran is approaching. Israeli military exercises are normal and to be expected. Your military probably has a plan ready for any sort of situation. So this is not necessarily a sign that war is looming. Its a sign that your military is prepared, which is different.

Maybe this exercise is both training for any strike that may need to be carried out and also a political message-- to Iran saying "don't push it" and to the US and other Western nations saying "if you don't fix this, we'll fix it for you".

As for what you hear in the media, I dont see why you're giving them any sort of predictive power. Tell me of a single war that you could have predicted based on press releases? I just dont think that medias analysis is a good approach to try and predict the future of international relations.

Out of 12 iranian nuclear facilities, apparently 4 are capable of creating weapon-grade nuclear weapon. Hitting 4 facilities is certainly within the realm of the possible for Israel. There's no need to talk about land-invasion, occupation and regim change, when your only objectives is to put a stop to Iran's nuclear research and to resist iranian retaliation.

It's unlikely the Israeli would do any strike without some kind of approval from Washington, and it is unlikely the Americans would give an approval unless they felt they could hold-off iranian meddling\retaliation in Irak while the airstrike was going on. So in my opinion, an israeli strike on Iran's nuclear facilities would only be allowed by the Americans once Irak is solide enough to resist iranian retaliation, or even better, once Irak is able to be effectively used as a base to project american power in the region, which is far from being the case yet.

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folder icon   07-08-2008, 07:57 AM
Post #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black~Enthusiasm
To have a contigency plan ready for Iran doesnt mean that an actual war with Iran is approaching. Israeli military exercises are normal and to be expected. Your military probably has a plan ready for any sort of situation. So this is not necessarily a sign that war is looming. Its a sign that your military is prepared, which is different.

Maybe this exercise is both training for any strike that may need to be carried out and also a political message-- to Iran saying "don't push it" and to the US and other Western nations saying "if you don't fix this, we'll fix it for you".

As for what you hear in the media, I dont see why you're giving them any sort of predictive power. Tell me of a single war that you could have predicted based on press releases? I just dont think that medias analysis is a good approach to try and predict the future of international relations.

Out of 12 iranian nuclear facilities, apparently 4 are capable of creating weapon-grade nuclear weapon. Hitting 4 facilities is certainly within the realm of the possible for Israel. There's no need to talk about land-invasion, occupation and regim change, when your only objectives is to put a stop to Iran's nuclear research and to resist iranian retaliation.

It's unlikely the Israeli would do any strike without some kind of approval from Washington, and it is unlikely the Americans would give an approval unless they felt they could hold-off iranian meddling\retaliation in Irak while the airstrike was going on. So in my opinion, an israeli strike on Iran's nuclear facilities would only be allowed by the Americans once Irak is solide enough to resist iranian retaliation, or even better, once Irak is able to be effectively used as a base to project american power in the region, which is far from being the case yet.


Of course our military exercises regulary to be prepared, but knowing a bit about the air force since I served there (granted, only in the maintenance wing) full scale drills are not things of the ordinary. There are drills all the time, but if the magnitude of the drill reported is correct, the aircrafts flew the length they'll need to reach Iran from Israel. Naturally it's a plan for readiness in case we need to strike, but the need apparently is great these days.

Back in the 80's, one day, we bombed Iraq's nuclear plant before its completion. Half a year ago, we bombed Syria's secret nuclear plant before its completion. See a pattern? Iran today is biggest threat to Israel in the region, since they have military and technological prowess and the funds to support them, unlike Lebanon with their guerilla warfare (which is a grave annoyance that disrupts day to day life, but at no risk for heavy losses), Syria with outdated weapon technology that are pratically flat broke and cannot support a prolonging war, and Palestine with their terror and rockets, similar to the situation with Lebanon.

Iran have everything they need to maintain a full fledged war on Israel these days, and if they obtain a nuclear warhead, it's a whole different rules to the game. Although not many make this distinction, there is seperation between Sunni and Shiite Muslims. Iran currently hold the vast majority and concentration of Shiite Muslims, who really don't get along with the Sunni. Although Jerusalem is considered a holy city to the Muslim world, it is held in less value to Shiite who have no problem fighting Sunni who are viewed as heretics and vice versa. So Israel could very well be threatend by a nuke, and with a radical fundementalist regime like Iran has, betting wether they have the balls to launch such an attack or not is a stake too high.

Israel doesn't need America's approval. On the other hand, I think the USA is counting on us. I think all these reports that are coming from the USA, while Israel keeps a lid on it, only show that they are using us as a wild card, especially after the Iraqi fiasco. Since they cannot really threat Iran themselves as the world won't accept another American invasion at the moment, they are threatening Ahmand Nehgad and the Iiatullahs through us, to keep them on their toes. Given the examples of attacks we did before, Iran very well know we are capable and willing to strike. For me, the only question is remaining - is when. So to that I agree with you.

Media is mostly biased and unlike what you think, it is censored, highly censored. But you can gather information that way, while it's inconsicive, it can tell the direction the wind is blowing. All these reports made about Israeli exercises and analysi of the situation are out there for a reason, and uncommented by Israel for a reason.

We don't care too much for the situation in Iraq, that's not our shit to handle, so we don't have to wait for America to stabilize the atmosphere there before our attack, because there is what we call 'the point of no return' when it relates to the progress of Iran's nuclear research. According to multiple published intelligence reports it can be anywhere between a year to three years, so I gather we won't take our chances.

Will it spark an all-out war in the region? Will my worst fear (or joy) materialize and World War III will commence? Will Lost ever make any god damn sense?

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folder icon   07-08-2008, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeGee


Israel doesn't need America's approval.


To reach Iran, Israel would need to fly over Iraki airspace, which is by dfault american airspace. To imagine Israel vioating iraqi airspace without Washington's approval, we're talking about our entire air command being told "Your screens show about one hundred and fifty aircraft on a southwest vector. Ignore them, it's a radar malfunction."



Thats the shortest trip anyway.

I still think that Irsrael will need some sort of approval from Washington. Seeing as they'd need to fly above Irak, and seeing how America would be the most vulnerable to iranian retaliation, I assume the Americans will do what they can to try to delay any strikes until they feel they're ready. Even if Israel act on its own accord, it would still be viewed as having tacit approval from the US

Anyway this is how I see it. We'll just have to wait and see. I dont think things will move unless one of 2 things happen; the Americans withdraw from Irak (because I really think that the situation in Irak is playing an important role in Israel's calculation), or Iran announcing they've develloped a nuke. Until then, it'll be more international dickwaving and posturing.

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folder icon   07-08-2008, 10:56 AM
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Veegee, what's Israel's general sentiment of America's invasion and occupation of Iraq? just curious.

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folder icon   07-08-2008, 12:24 PM
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so and so -- generally, we're glad Saddam is out. He did send missiles on us during the first Gulf War, and Bush Sr. fobidded Israel from retaliating, so we didn't. We also provide a lot of anti-terriorist tactical training to US military on how to fight in closed quarters, since the situation in Gaza strip, for example, and cities across Iraq are similar.

B~E -- you're forgetting, or you don't know, that Israel has a military pact with Turkey, which means we'll need their approval to fly across their sky. It's a longer flight, yes. Also, we would not be departing from Eilat (our southern city) and no chance in hell will we be flying above Saudia Arabia. Maybe Jordan. So yes, if the flight plan will be above Iraq, we'll need Jordan's approval (peace treaty, but no military pact) and US approval. I think it's safe to assume though we'll be doing it above Turkey.

But again, Israel cannot take the chance of Iran already announcing they've developed a nuke. That's exactly why we would be attacking -- to prevent them from reaching such a point.

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folder icon   07-12-2008, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultra_punk
Well i'm still as pacifist as i was back then... but i'm trying gauge the personality of Iran. It's difficult because Iranian government has to balance between its disgust for Israel and its general losses from a conflagration in the mid-east. I largely suspect Iran will take it up the ass from an Israeli bombing, let the USA showboat its navy near its shores around the oil pipeline and then roll in a super fascist regime based on the destroying the "evil zionists and corrupt capitalists". That's how you run a democracy afterall, if I've learned anything from Bush, the Israel bombing of any nuclear site in Iran will be a 9/11 for them.

...and then roll in a super fascist regime based on the destroying the "evil zionists and corrupt capitalists".

Those two groups you mentioned actually run America!

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folder icon   07-13-2008, 06:50 AM
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the world is in the brink of the third world war........
................its not getting a safe place to live............

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